How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

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battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:21 pm

Yes, I know he's just arrogant! I have a problem with a player not wanting to Draw a game. He says he'll only accept the Draw only if I'm 2995 or higher, he's 3000+, Not that it matter either way, but, I've never been that close for one thing! He's complaining about the ratings system! Can we get this game to end as a Draw, we're at 62+ moves, I've asked 4-6+ time for a Draw!
Also, how can I Block this player? Block from any further Mini's I may have, it's a shame, but, we can't keep continuing to do this every time a game is played, with this childish behavior!
One other thing, is this happening to other players he's had!?

https://net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1105380717

gcohen
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by gcohen » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:39 pm

bocaelmasgrande -- "he with the biggest mouth" -- is a jerk.
He obviously has an over-inflated idea of himself.
I had a game with him which was an obvious draw and he refused to.
After losing time for nothing, I just resigned the game.
So what if you lose a few points?
No, Greg doesn't allow you to block people.
Don't play with him anymore, that's all, and if he signs up for one of your matches
just ignore him and let the game go.
Another giveaway -- he posts these matches he calls "Supermasters."
Another indication of his inflated ego.
Also, if his rating is 3000, for ex., just post an upper limit
of 2990 or 2985 and that will keep him out of your life.

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:24 pm

Yes, your right, I agree gcohen and stated as much to him! I had planned to post some games, but I don't want him, only to have to try to the same thing, and yes, he's only going to join(join others)to discriminate, aggravate, intimidate, get people to quit games-in his favor, BUT shouldn't happen that way!!

Now, I'm ALL for him/others, to deter further problems, is to have his games/any others too, to be ended as a Lost to him/Win to his opponent/their opponents, Ratings reflecting thereof!!!! That's the only way to stop this, this type of thing!! Especially, if we are unable to Block people!!
We can be afraid to Post Games, because he/anyone may join, who are trouble makers, in this manner, or force/intimidate someone to have to just resign, him/them rewarded!!!

Also, he's in the Site Tournament as well, I believe this is his first time, IF he does the same thing of only staying ahead in time to run-out the clock only to Win with a Draw/Lost Game, only to refuse to accept the Draw, Resign the game!?
Does the Site make rulings on these types of things, or just straight time-75 days-that's it, whomever has not timed-out Wins, automatically!?
If so, I can see why people don't like to join up for this!! I had one player in my time, who done this, but I never questioned it!!

He/They will then stop this and only then will they stop this!
Thanks!!!!

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 pm

Yes, your right, I agree gcohen and stated as much to him! I had planned to post some games, but I don't want him, only to have to try to the same thing, and yes, he's only going to join(join others)to discriminate, aggravate, intimidate, get people to quit games-in his favor, BUT shouldn't happen that way!!

Now, I'm ALL for him/others, to deter further problems, is to have his games/any others too, to be ended as a Lost to him/Win to his opponent/their opponents, Ratings reflecting thereof!!!! That's the only way to stop this, this type of thing!! Especially, if we are unable to Block people!!
We can't be afraid to Post Games, because he/anyone may join, who are trouble makers, in this manner, or force/intimidate someone to have to just resign, him/them rewarded!!!

Also, he's in the Site Tournament as well, I believe this is his first time, IF he does the same thing of only staying ahead in time to run-out the clock only to Win with a Draw/Lost Game, only to refuse to accept the Draw, Resign the game!?
Does the Site make rulings on these types of things, or just straight time-75 days-that's it, whomever has not timed-out Wins, automatically!?
If so, I can see why people don't like to join up for this!! I had one player in my time, who done this, but I never questioned it!!

He/They will then stop this and only then will they stop this!
Thanks!!!!

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:36 pm

Shoot, LOL!

gmiller
Site Admin
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Location: Jeffersonville, IN
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Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by gmiller » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:59 pm

Players are generally entitled to play out drawn or even obviously lost games. Once you get to a three move repetition, 50 moves without a capture or pawn push, or a theoretical drawn position, a draw can be declared.

A "block" feature really only works on blitz sites where you play one game at a time. There's really no practical way to do it here. If you join a match, then he joins, do you get booted out, or does he get rejected joining? Either case will result in abuse of people joining matches just to boot the other player. Making it so it only applies to matches you start, means everyone will only start their own matches and not join anyone else's.

Just as in OTB matches, you're sometimes going to get paired against people you don't like.
Greg Miller

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:28 am

Yes, I kind of figured you'd say something the nature!
That's not quite true for Draw games, especially, your "generally entitled" once you get to 40, 50, 60 moves, of which constitutes a game-played game! Some people like to try 20-30 moves and ask for a Draw, you can't rightly demand a game be determined a Drawn game! Obvious Lost game, sure they can-there's a end to the game, "In Chess", the name of the game is still to checkmate your opponents King, if need be!! A Drawn you can't do that!

What constitutes a "Theoretically Drawn Game"!?

I'm declaring that my game with him is of such, a "Theoretically Drawn Game", please Draw this game, Thank you!

https://net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g ... 6632439737

Sure "Blocking works!" implementing to work on the Site is a different issue with the infrastructure/architecture!
In the/a situation such as the Site(Open to all!)Tourney, the feature won't work automatically! You pair with whomever you get paired to! But if I start a "Mini" we'll say, 2, 5, 10, 20 ... etc. players, I'm in it, he's Blocked, he should not see it or no button to click to join! It works on every site that has it! It's truly sad things like this happens! But it does and steps are generally taken to curb it/stop it!

Yes, now if JoeSpackle (Yes, I know there are no Capitals, LOL!) starts a game, I have to make(sadly I/anyone in same situation!)the determination to join and take a chance or have to wait(forced childish game playing!)to be the last to join!! A intimidation burden placed on players to engage in, not right!! Just as there are the Ratings restrictions!!

You can't compare OTB stuff!

Mr. Miller, is there anything more to say about what I asked about the Site Tourney Rules of play, and how this plays into that, with the end of those games!? Whatever else I forgot to ask, not mentioned!? Thanks!

gmiller
Site Admin
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Location: Jeffersonville, IN
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Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by gmiller » Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:15 pm

A theoretically drawn game is a game where checkmate is impossible, such as KN vs K, KN vs KN is not theoretically drawn. The "50 moves without a pawn push or capture" and the "three move repetition" are the ways to end a game that are drawn in practice.
Greg Miller

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:19 am

Mr. Miller, is there anything more to say about what I asked about the Site Tourney Rules of play, and how this plays into that, with the end of those games!? Whatever else I forgot to ask, not mentioned!? Thanks!

battousai
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:02 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by battousai » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:57 pm

Yes, as I thought and expected!!!!

jumpnmustang
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:43 pm

Re: How do we end a Draw game/which a player refuses to ...

Post by jumpnmustang » Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:03 pm

Hi,

I have not really posted in here in years. Mostly because I never really see much anymore in forums to post about. It could be just me. You don't have to read this. It is long and probably tiring. I am only posting it in case you would like to know the boring life of a TD.:-)

Anyway, I hate to contest site rules vs chess rules, but in this case I will interject my opinion. In case it is necessary I have been a USCF TD for about 10 years. And I am decently rated on here and on USCF and most sites I attend. So I can not only judge positions by USCF standards and even quote some FIDE laws, but I can judge a theoretically drawn position.

1. There is nothing to state that gmiller is incorrect declaring this game not a draw based on his own rules. Or uscf or FIDE rules for that matter.
2. Theoretical draws are draws in which are indicated in theory as drawn. The draws in which gmiller stated are basic draws dictated by the rules of chess. An example of a game in which is theoretically drawn with mate possible would be two knights vs a king. And FIDE would make someone play that out if the player who has two knights wants to play it out. And then the 50 move rule would be in effect. This is the rule that technically gmiller would be following if he would like to admit it and it is permitted in pretty much all rules of base chess. Also he as the site owner or even a TD such as myself can call a theoretical draw if we determine it is a theoretical draw. Another indication of a theoretical draw is known theoretical draws like the "Philidor position", "Vancura position", A king and pawn ending known to be drawn and the player claiming the draw can verbalize the draw method. Beyond this the method of determining an actual draw is to place a 5 minute clock with delay and have the claimant prove they can draw it in that amount of time. Yes that is OTB only.
3. This here is a solved position by computers to be drawn. You can see it by copying and pasting the pgn into lichess's analyse system and open the book. It will show the nalmilov table bases and it shows a drawn solved setting. Because this is a turn base site and it is considered "correspondence" by most standards, you can go by the tablebases because researching tablebases is theoretically approved in correspondence play because it falls under research. And again this falls under the site rules, that if the admin wants to decide to call the game based on the tablebases he of course can do that, or he can still default to the base FIDE laws. Site ownership is a pretty big determination of how rules are followed.

4. This is important because it is how a TD such as myself would approach a situation like this. Considering I am approximately similar rating as the complainant I can show similar judgement of a position. As a TD we decide first if this is a well known drawn position based on the knowledge of a "C" class player. Or a USCF 1400-1600 player. Unfortunately for the complainant it is not. This is a position that is considered to be playable to a C class player. Further, it is also falling under the rule stated in the USCF handbook as whether or not a C class player could prove to draw or win against a master. And again the analysis would prove false. It is probable, but it is not definitive. It is proper to have the claimant ask for a draw ruling for the TD based on the look of the position. When I looked at the position I saw no indication of 3 move repetition, and the 50 move rule was reset on every pawn move which the last one was on move 71. In this case both USCF and FIDE would require that you both play it out until you meet the above conditions. Those being 1. Three move rep, 2. 50 move rule, 3. achieve a position that is easily noted that a C class player can beat or draw a master OTB.

Unfortunately, as I agree that your opponent was acting unsportsmanlike there is really nothing that could be done about it, and logical deduction would dictate that he is in the right to make you proceed until conditions are met. I believe there are some TD's that will warn on unsportsmanlike behavior and even threaten to reduce time if it is witnessed and continues. Again that is OTB conditions.. but usually his behavior in general is ignored because it doesn't really hurt anyone unless he's loud about it. (Again obviously these code of conduct stuff only pertains to OTB conditions so I am only stating them to establish the differences.) It is not enough to ban someone for this behavior.

On the bright side.. Yes it is possible and potentially appropriate to create your own tournaments and you can theoretically ban players who are above a certain rating. Although, I don't know how ethical it is to rating ban as it would effect anyone above a rating not just that person. I am sorry I couldn't validate your claim, but I can side with you that if your opponent did treat you the way you say he did, that as a human he was out of line.. But as a player he was "technically" within the rules. And gmiller enforcing the game to continue would be appropriate in this situation.

I did notice that the position in question was indeed drawn shortly after the pawn move, am I correct to assume your opponent agreed to the draw or was it forced by the admin?

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