Those who purposely time out....when losing.

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imreallylousy
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Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:10 pm

I suppose there is little to be done with those who purposely time out when their position is hopeless. I recently played four games with Eisdrache, a far superior player. I lost the first three but I have a forced winning position in the fourth. Silence from Eisdrache. He seems to have a penchant for timing out (14) and I suspect they were all losing positions. I find such behavior lamentable at least, unsportsmanlike for sure, and, yes, even disgusting. I shall not play him again.

gmiller
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:53 pm

I've reduced his time remaining so he'll either move or time out sooner.
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by redketchuplover » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:00 am

Aren't the time controls set before the game starts? tia

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:32 am

Yes, but USCF rules specifically prohibit abandoning a game, especially in a loosing position.
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cmulligan
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by cmulligan » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:33 am

Time controls are set prior,it's still very poor sportsmanship to just run out the clock when in a lost position though.I'll freely admit that I have a bit of a temper & sometimes can get pretty angry when I screw up a game,especially if its due to some stupid,basic mistake.However;I get angry at myself,not my opponent...unless its islanderfan...he cheats & smells bad!! :lol: In cases like this I do sometimes take an extra few days to calm down & analyse to see if there is any way to salvage the position.If not though,then I just resign & give my opponent his rightful win...unless;once again it's islanderfan...in which case I run out the clock & send him lot's of emails swearing at him & making threats... :D

What I'm trying to say is that it's just a game.Winning doesn't pay your bills & losing doesn't cost you anything but a bit of pride.Enjoy your wins,learn from your losses & move on.If ya pee away a game;it's just human nature to get mad about it sometimes,but don't take it out on your opponent.Play it out in a timely manner or resign,don't be a jerk.I'm also trying to say that none of this touchy,feely nice guy stuff counts if you are playing islanderfan.In that case;let your inner douchebag run free! :lol: :lol:

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:04 pm

The time limits are set, they should be allowed to run according to the pre-game settings.
Who's to say your opponent HASN'T just left on a business trip. Say he has a game going on and he just makes a terrible sequence of moves that leaves him in a LOSING position. He takes a couple days off away from the 'Idiot Box' to cool down over this game, but business (or, heaven forbid... real life!) calls him away.
How can you just take away his time?!
He is abiding by the rules set here!
Just a thought...

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:10 pm

If one is called away for whatever reason, he/she should notify their opponents. Common courtesy.
Eisdrache has been making other moves on a regular basis....the last on 11/25.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:17 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:27 pm

Eisdrache's last move in that game was on 11/6. He has made many, many moves since then in other games. I suspect he does not want to lose points against a much lower rated player. Ergo, he's sitting back and waiting to time out. If he has a legitimate reason for not moving, I shall be the first to apologize. I do not believe I am being impatient given his obviously frequent moves against others.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:34 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:37 pm

Yes, play within the time limits set, but play, do not cop out.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:17 pm

Ok, that's settled... now accept my challenge and let's get The Great NorthWest Challenge started!!!

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:19 am

ecperreault wrote:He is abiding by the rules set here!
The important thing is that he is not abiding by the rules, abandoning a game is not allowed. He is abiding by the time-control rules, but it's all of the rules that matter, not just the ones certain people think are important or know about. And my involvement in the game did not alter the outcome. The USCF recommended penalty is automatic forfeit of the game and ejection from the tournament, so my reducing the time remaining down to 10 days is actually rather mild.
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ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:54 pm

Good point, Greg. I had forgot that USCF rule.

jumpnmustang
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by jumpnmustang » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:17 pm

The only specific rule I know of about game abandonment is the fact that you cannot leave the tournament hall without notifying the TD if it's other than going to the rest room (Some TD's require notification of restroom breaks if you are in the final half of the tournament and you are on the leading 1/4 of your section(s). And there is a second similar rule stating that you cannot leave the board for more than 15 minutes at any given time or risk forfeiture. I am a certified USCF TD. This rule I suppose could apply here if that is what you are invoking. According to the USCF rules, if he is there he can take all the time he wants to lose. And the only reason the TD can or should intervene is if he is gone like above. In this case instituting a way to communicate with someone easily as the owner of the site would be more fair. Usually letting your time run is not really an issue unless you are breaking what was mentioned above, which is gone for more than 15 minutes, or leaving the tournament hall for odd reasons. As long as he is not mouthing off or bad mouthing or copping an attitude and communicates with the arbiter he is within his rights. There might be slight measure changes when it comes to turn base and massive time controls like what we support here. (An example would be to have the arbitrator talk to the person lagging, and see if he responds in say 2-4 days maybe a week to account for busy lives or emergencies, which would be a fair translation of 15 minutes to a 30 day with 2 day increment, if the player fails to respond you can forfeit him with points going to the player. This is assuming the problem is with someone who is obviously losing not someone in an intense battle down material for example.) I am just giving the normal ruling. (I might suggest if you want to stop time outs like this situation, and then also fairly invoke USCF style rulings, is create a rule where the server auto blocks rated games if you do it more than X number of times and it blocks for X amount of time. This might also enhance games being finished over all.) Honestly I don't care if someone times out as long as it registers a win for me.;-) Hope this helps.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:51 pm

... oh, boy. I look forward to Greg's response. It should be quite interesting... or short.
Touchy subject...
This mayhap be an official ruling for this site.
Everyone will be watching...
I just love controversy!!! Which sox do I wear today... can't be they burgundy ones because it clashes with the mailman's grey suit...
:twisted:

jumpnmustang
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by jumpnmustang » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:51 pm

Well I am not disagreeing with Greg, as I am sure he knows. I am adding to the topic because he is right, if he follows the guideline according to the rules he is saying he is following then he has every right to forfeit the player and what he did was tame. However, in all honesty it kind of is dependent on the communication of the player who is 'offending' so to speak. I am kind of surprised he brings USCF into the mix, because most sites I am on will disclaim that they don't use USCF's rules. They have their own unless they are running a USCF sanctioned tournament. :D :) :( :o :shock:

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:40 pm

I guess I have opened a bit of a hornet''s nest here. I have reviewed those games in which Eisdrache has timed out, and they all appear to be losing positions. If he lets the time run out in our game, as is his right, I think he should forfeit the game. It is not fair to allow anyone to time out without penalty.
Eisdrache has made multiple moves in other games since he last moved in our game....Nov. 6th!
Furthermore, in tournament chess, if your clock runs out you lose. Seems simple to me.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:08 pm

Sooooo..., why not just let his clock run out and not shake a nest of hornets in the first place. EVERYBODY who has played internet chess has come up against this. All I wonder, is if there is an exception for one... than Greg might be busy doing for many... unless this was a special favor. Doesn't seem to be an exception, for it is common enough to have a losing (completely lost) opponent time out the game.
Just wondering where this 'exception' leads, or better yet, where it ends.

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:11 pm

For a player to leave for 15 minutes, it's actually up to the player to notify the TD, not the other way around. Abandonment is also mentioned in other places in the rule book like the section on "Internet Chess" under the heading "Unethical Behavior": "Purposely disconnecting or logging off during a difficult or losing position...". I believe it's also mentioned in one other place regarding unsportsmanlike conduct, but can't seem to find it right now. And I also remember this being on the test to move up to Local TD. There are other rules that could be invoked too, like "Annoying behavior" and "refusing to play to the best of your ability".

The first thing I do when someone makes a complaint like this is to see if the player is still making moves in other games. If they are, then it's clearly not a situation where they just don't have time to move. I also take into account that they may need time to analyze/look for a way out of the difficult position, but if they haven't moved in several weeks, then that idea is out too. Lastly is computer analysis to make sure it really is a losing position, if it's within a few pawns, I'd rather let the time run out normally.

I actually had an opponent who timed out in an OTB game, while we were both present. He wasn't losing, but it was a really tactical position, and he just sat there staring at the board for about 20 minutes, and I did too.

I choose to enforce USCF rules here, because they're the rules I know from being a USCF TD. When I was regularly running tournaments, I would generally read the rule book cover to cover every couple of months. I know every rule doesn't apply exactly, but it's good enough.
Greg Miller

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:49 pm

So what will be the final result in all this? Will Eisdrache be allowed to purposely time out without forfeiture? Without penalty?

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:01 pm

The penalty was that his time remaining was reduced to 10 days. The game can continue as normal from there, which might be a time-out loss.
Greg Miller

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:39 pm

Done! and Done!

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Greg: " Might be a time out loss". Could you be a little more specific? Will his rating go up or down if and when he times out?

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:44 pm

I don't think that is relevant to you, sir. But his rating does drop and yours does rise just as if you checkmated him.

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:11 pm

A timeout counts the same as any other loss, ratings will be adjusted just as if it were checkmate.
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imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:23 pm

Thanks. That's all I wanted to know.

jumpnmustang
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by jumpnmustang » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:42 pm

I don't believe I alluded to saying anyone was responsible for the 15 minute rule. if anyone was responsible it would be the opponent of the offender. Just to clear that in case it was pointed at me.You know I forgot totally that there was an internet section. I should look at that because I am considering seeing about setting up some myself. But it would be super trust situations like I know the participants personally, or there is a td present on all sides of the internet gap. Too much work and not enough science in my opinion to back up computer abuse tracking. And you can't maintain tournament conditions without a live td of some sort. Do you think it would be worth it in my suggested setup Greg?

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by knightmare » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:03 pm

I’m just going to chime in here because …well , I feel like it.
I am not a tournament director and I am inclined to defer to Greg’s judgment in all matters. So I’m not disputing his right or reasons for making decisions as he sees fit. He has done an outstanding job of running this site. All Hail Greg!!

However, I am of a different opinion as to how this type of dispute might be handled.
A first principle of chess is that it is a game between two players and the clock. No outside forces should be allowed to interfere with that dynamic accept under extraordinary circumstances. And I am not at all convinced that there is an internet equivalent to “leaving the tournament hall.” Also, whether or not a players is making moves in other games is irrelevant. Perhaps I’m wrong but I don’t believe any rules, under any circumstance , allows events in one game to be considered in adjudicating another game. The one has, IMHO nothing to do with the other. In a live tournament environment the rules as to what constitutes extraordinary circumstance are, for the most part, clear to the participants before they sit down at the board, here it’s a little more ambiguous.
I have little doubt that the player whose time was shortened by Greg had in all probability abandoned the game. But little doubt is all I would need, and I would still object on the grounds that it violates this first principle. Two players and the Clock. I have played thousands of games on this site and Never abandoned a single game, but using the clock is one on the tools in our box of chess strategies. I have found myself in inferior positions, but with lots of extra time, and simply sat on it. Wait…let the clock run and hope. Perhaps my opponent will get caught up in other games and lose the thread. (I’ve done that too) The point is.. two players and the clock determine the outcome. Waiting for your opponents clock to run out is free, and it doesn’t force Greg to adjudicate matters that will resolve themselves if left alone. And I’m sure he’s got better things to do . (at least I hope so:) But if your tired of waiting … resign.
That, in my opinion is the way to deal with opponents who “abandon the game.”

imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:40 pm

Your opinion is a nightmare. :):) When I posed this subject, I was unaware that those who time out after making more than 10 moves would suffer a loss in rating and the other player would gain points. Had I known that, I would have simply waited for it to happen. For my lack of understanding, I apologize to one and all.

ecperreault
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by ecperreault » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:29 pm

I think that clears up everything. :roll:
I hope people don't to start fill Greg's emailbox with requests to slice time off an obnoxious player who is slower than me pushing away from a Holiday Feast at someone else's house.
If they do - I hope none of them get their wish. Just seems as though the worms are crawling out of this box box. Close the lid, Greg :!: :!: :!:

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:16 pm

Knightmare, I'm almost tempted to say that's a valid interpretation of the rules. I'll agree the rules here are ambiguous in many instances, but they are also frequently ambiguous in OTB matches played under USCF or FIDE rules. For example, how do you know a player has been gone for 15 minutes? What should the penalty be if they have? In very long time control matches, it is actually uncommon for a player to not leave the playing area for more than 15 minutes, and TDs and players generally disregard the rule.

The idea that chess is a game between two players and no one should intervene is stated repeatedly in the rule book, but immediately following that statement is "...unless one of the player's wishes to make a claim". And almost the entire rulebook is about those times the TD intervenes.

There certainly is no direct interpretation of the "leaving the playing area for 15 minutes". But the intent of the rule is fairly clear: it would be inconvenient and annoying to force someone to sit at the board when the opponent has no intention of returning. And that interpretation does apply to correspondence games. The concept you mentioned of hoping your opponent got caught up in other games is akin to that abandoning player sneaking back in and pressing the clock while the other player wasn't looking. Is there a specific rule against it, no, but it should be obvious to a reasonable person that that isn't the way a game of chess is supposed to be decided.
Greg Miller

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:18 pm

imreallylousy wrote:... I was unaware that those who time out after making more than 10 moves would suffer a loss in rating and the other player would gain points.
A timeout always counts as a loss, even under 10 moves. It's just the winner doesn't get credit if there were less than 10 moves. Other than that, it's just like losing by any other means.
Greg Miller

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Forgot to address the concept of events in one game affecting a different game.

The fact that a player moves in one game and not another does not have an immediate and direct affect on the other game, it is only one piece of evidence used to determine if a player actually intends to continue playing. It's more about establishing the player's habits than applying the effects of one game to another. For instance, if a player habitually got mad and left tournaments in losing positions, it would be perfectly valid to use that information when making a ruling on the game at hand.
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imreallylousy
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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by imreallylousy » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:54 pm

Thanks, Greg. My understanding is now complete concerning the rules used on this site vis a vis the timeout issue. But, if a player times out in less than ten moves and thereby loses the game and rating points, why shouldn't his opponent gain points? In a regular tournament, isn't this the case? Is the ten move criteria unique to this site?

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Re: Those who purposely time out....when losing.

Post by gmiller » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:16 am

The 10 move rule is just here. It's needed because of the large number of people who start games, make a couple of moves and never return to the site. There is a similar rule in the USCF. If a player doesn't make a move in a game at all, then the game won't be rated at all, but it will still count as a forfeit loss for purposes of scoring the tournament.
Greg Miller

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