A PUNISHMENT
A PUNISHMENT
Look at my opponent comments on
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 0111603953
"Comment: Kiss my .."
I had not made any comment before. Only offered draw in this drawish position.
I want the point in this game.
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 0111603953
"Comment: Kiss my .."
I had not made any comment before. Only offered draw in this drawish position.
I want the point in this game.
A WARNING?
Why SO WEAK punishment?
Every chess player is already warned by the Chess Laws that he can not insult his opponents.
You should not advice him he can not act as he acted.
Look what the FIDE Laws say:
Article 12: The conduct of the players
12.1
The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
13.2
The arbiter shall act in the best interest of the competition. He should ensure that a good playing environment is maintained and that the players are not disturbed. He shall supervise the progress of the competition.
Behavioural norms of players in chess events
Any player who does not shake hands with the opponent .... or deliberately insults his/her opponent or the officials of the event, will immediately and finally lose the relevant game.
I have showed this case to some prominent International Arbiters, and all of them told me, that if he deliberately insults me (and more, without any
reason) should lose inmediatly the game.
I am not psicologicallly balanced in this game to continue playing, and his violation of the rules, and of the spirit of the game, was the origin of my unbalance.
So I will not continue that game and I am asking you, as the authority of this site, to make the chess rules to be observed.
And in my experience of 45 years as professional chess player, everytime a player insulted his opponent during the game was punished with a 0 in the game, and sometimes was desqualified. Never was only warned, as you have done.
Do you want Geurt Ghijssen (IA) opinion? I can ask him and he will post his answer in his column in Chess Cafe.
Every chess player is already warned by the Chess Laws that he can not insult his opponents.
You should not advice him he can not act as he acted.
Look what the FIDE Laws say:
Article 12: The conduct of the players
12.1
The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
13.2
The arbiter shall act in the best interest of the competition. He should ensure that a good playing environment is maintained and that the players are not disturbed. He shall supervise the progress of the competition.
Behavioural norms of players in chess events
Any player who does not shake hands with the opponent .... or deliberately insults his/her opponent or the officials of the event, will immediately and finally lose the relevant game.
I have showed this case to some prominent International Arbiters, and all of them told me, that if he deliberately insults me (and more, without any
reason) should lose inmediatly the game.
I am not psicologicallly balanced in this game to continue playing, and his violation of the rules, and of the spirit of the game, was the origin of my unbalance.
So I will not continue that game and I am asking you, as the authority of this site, to make the chess rules to be observed.
And in my experience of 45 years as professional chess player, everytime a player insulted his opponent during the game was punished with a 0 in the game, and sometimes was desqualified. Never was only warned, as you have done.
Do you want Geurt Ghijssen (IA) opinion? I can ask him and he will post his answer in his column in Chess Cafe.
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Rules -
We have to realize the rules of chess were made long before the internet and the fact that players can remain anonymous, as well as that, if grown up would probably enjoy a beer with the other.
Be peaceful or don't play here. nomor,nomor, hit the road Jack? hm, where was I going and why am I here. So much to do. So many dragons to slay..
Be peaceful or don't play here. nomor,nomor, hit the road Jack? hm, where was I going and why am I here. So much to do. So many dragons to slay..
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Even though this is the internet, it is certainly in no way appropriate for anyone to use profanity. And even though USCF rules are used here (because they're the only ones I know) there are still rules against unsportsmanlike behavior and annoying behavior.
I consider a warning strong enough action because it normally works, and it's the first such complaint against this user.
Since you already know the rules, I would imagine FIDE has a similar rule regarding the TD's ruling being binding. And if you're unable to continue play given the ruling, you loose the game fair and square.
I consider a warning strong enough action because it normally works, and it's the first such complaint against this user.
Since you already know the rules, I would imagine FIDE has a similar rule regarding the TD's ruling being binding. And if you're unable to continue play given the ruling, you loose the game fair and square.
Greg Miller
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Re: A WARNING?
~ A professional knows how to stay focused.malakhov wrote:Why SO WEAK punishment?
Every chess player is already warned by the Chess Laws that he can not insult his opponents.
You should not advice him he can not act as he acted.
Look what the FIDE Laws say:
Article 12: The conduct of the players
12.1
The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
13.2
The arbiter shall act in the best interest of the competition. He should ensure that a good playing environment is maintained and that the players are not disturbed. He shall supervise the progress of the competition.
Behavioural norms of players in chess events
Any player who does not shake hands with the opponent .... or deliberately insults his/her opponent or the officials of the event, will immediately and finally lose the relevant game.
I have showed this case to some prominent International Arbiters, and all of them told me, that if he deliberately insults me (and more, without any
reason) should lose inmediatly the game.
I am not psicologicallly balanced in this game to continue playing, and his violation of the rules, and of the spirit of the game, was the origin of my unbalance.
So I will not continue that game and I am asking you, as the authority of this site, to make the chess rules to be observed.
And in my experience of 45 years as professional chess player, everytime a player insulted his opponent during the game was punished with a 0 in the game, and sometimes was desqualified. Never was only warned, as you have done.
Do you want Geurt Ghijssen (IA) opinion? I can ask him and he will post his answer in his column in Chess Cafe.
~ A professional does not come unhinged at the slightest provocation.
~ A professional respects the decisions handed down by authority, even when they are in disagreement with said ruling.
~ A professional uses proper channels to effect change and does not resort to public displays that border on histrionics.
A true professional with 45 years experience and wisdom would not need to be told these things, their behavior would demonstrate them adequately enough.
Re: A WARNING?
Very nicely said, rdecredico! Let's see if that can finally get the point accross that everyone else has failed to! Thanks!rdecredico wrote:~ A professional knows how to stay focused.malakhov wrote:Why SO WEAK punishment?
Every chess player is already warned by the Chess Laws that he can not insult his opponents.
...
I am not psicologicallly balanced in this game to continue playing, and his violation of the rules, and of the spirit of the game, was the origin of my unbalance.
So I will not continue that game and I am asking you, as the authority of this site, to make the chess rules to be observed.
And in my experience of 45 years as professional chess player, everytime a player insulted his opponent during the game was punished with a 0 in the game, and sometimes was desqualified. Never was only warned, as you have done.
Do you want Geurt Ghijssen (IA) opinion? I can ask him and he will post his answer in his column in Chess Cafe.
~ A professional does not come unhinged at the slightest provocation.
~ A professional respects the decisions handed down by authority, even when they are in disagreement with said ruling.
~ A professional uses proper channels to effect change and does not resort to public displays that border on histrionics.
A true professional with 45 years experience and wisdom would not need to be told these things, their behavior would demonstrate them adequately enough.
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Re: A WARNING?
I have never heard anything so stupid.cliff wrote:Very nicely said, rdecredico! Let's see if that can finally get the point accross that everyone else has failed to! Thanks!rdecredico wrote:~ A professional knows how to stay focused.malakhov wrote:Why SO WEAK punishment?
Every chess player is already warned by the Chess Laws that he can not insult his opponents.
...
I am not psicologicallly balanced in this game to continue playing, and his violation of the rules, and of the spirit of the game, was the origin of my unbalance.
So I will not continue that game and I am asking you, as the authority of this site, to make the chess rules to be observed.
And in my experience of 45 years as professional chess player, everytime a player insulted his opponent during the game was punished with a 0 in the game, and sometimes was desqualified. Never was only warned, as you have done.
Do you want Geurt Ghijssen (IA) opinion? I can ask him and he will post his answer in his column in Chess Cafe.
~ A professional does not come unhinged at the slightest provocation.
~ A professional respects the decisions handed down by authority, even when they are in disagreement with said ruling.
~ A professional uses proper channels to effect change and does not resort to public displays that border on histrionics.
A true professional with 45 years experience and wisdom would not need to be told these things, their behavior would demonstrate them adequately enough.
We are chess players, not machines,
You should know the immense variety of psychological tricks that are been used in chess tournaments.
And in all the cases, when those tricks break the FIDE rules, the offender is severely punished.
Here all are defending a guy who insults in a chess game.
That is against all the laws, and ethical principles.
You say "it was by the Internet", "he could be 15 years old", but those are not extenuating circumstances that hinder to apply Justice and the Laws.
There are all the pieces of evidence, there is extended jurisprudence in this case, there are the FIDE Laws that say "Behavioural norms of players in chess events -
Any player who does not shake hands with the opponent .... or deliberately insults his/her opponent or the officials of the event, will immediately and finally lose the relevant game."
And those are norms for highest level competitions.
GM Ivan Cheparinov was punished by the TD of Wijk Ann Zee B 2009 (category 16) for breaking this law, in his game against GM Nigel Short.
There are more cases in chess history.
If the nonsense written by Rdecredico, Cliff and Islanderfan, containing a lot of anti-Russian offenses (I have never spoken about USA, a country that I love and respect) were true, if a GM or a chess pro, should not be affected for those "against the rules, and the ethics" offenses, why the FIDE punished GM Cheparinov, and Bobby Fischer himself when they acted against the rules.
Stop your chauvinistic and burlesque posts.
Please refute one of my arguments.
No International Arbiter would allow a chess player to insult his opponent (without any reason) and continue the game as nothing has happened.
Prove that Gospodin attitude was right, or prove that an offender could continue a chess game, in accordance with the Laws.
Mr. Gmiller I beg you please, that applying the chess rules and the common sense, declare the game lost by Gospodin.
I will not be in a good psychological condition to continue that game, so if you decide that it will continue, the offender, the agressor, the hooligan will be the beneficiary of your unfair jugdement.
And awarding the offenders, and having fun of their victims, will be the path to increase the unsportmanlike attitudes.
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When my students leave school, some of them ask me to write something in their "personal books". Among others I prefer the following lines.
"In your future life three virtues are the most basic ones:
- the calmness to accept things which you cannot change
- the courage to work on things which you can change
- the wisdom to discriminate between these things."
(And NO, the ball in Wembley 1966 was NOT completely beyond the line. And YES, the moon landing in 1969 WAS a fake. We all know that, but we can´t do nothing about that ...)
"In your future life three virtues are the most basic ones:
- the calmness to accept things which you cannot change
- the courage to work on things which you can change
- the wisdom to discriminate between these things."
(And NO, the ball in Wembley 1966 was NOT completely beyond the line. And YES, the moon landing in 1969 WAS a fake. We all know that, but we can´t do nothing about that ...)
WHAT WE CANNOT CHANGE
What we cannot change?slowblunder wrote:When my students leave school, some of them ask me to write something in their "personal books". Among others I prefer the following lines.
"In your future life three virtues are the most basic ones:
- the calmness to accept things which you cannot change
- the courage to work on things which you can change
- the wisdom to discriminate between these things."
(And NO, the ball in Wembley 1966 was NOT completely beyond the line. And YES, the moon landing in 1969 WAS a fake. We all know that, but we can´t do nothing about that ...)
1- Gospodin`s offense? Yes
2- The TD decision, that have no precedent in the history of our game?
No.
In all the chess organizations there are second instance courts were everyone can try to change a wrong based ruling.
Is GMiller God? No, he could make a mistake, but can correct it.
More my chess arbiters friends are studying this case, they tell me that he should be declared defeated by forfeit.
Even in correspondence chess, chess by email, in the ICCF (as FIDE) there are rules that punish offenses and in every case they penalize acts as Gospodin`s with the lose for forfeit.
I have 2 problems here: 1- my poor English that do not allow me to express properly,
2- The Anti-Russian atmosphere that is gaining ground in this site.
I wonder if I were an American, and if a Russian player were the offender, you had ruled the same or the opposite.
I supposed that this was an International Group, with the FIDE motto "Gens una Sumus", but it seems that there is more chauvinism and intolerance that it is acceptable.
Please: do not cheat me, do not laugh on me, do not tell me silly advices, please refute my arguments.
Please explain me according what chess law or what ethical or sportmanship principles, Gospodin should be allowed to continue this game, as nothing has happened.
Gospodin has a 2803 rating points. He is a high level player, someone near or superior a normal GM level. So he is expected to act according to the highest level of sportmanship, as he belongs to the elite of this chess organization.
He is not a begginer with 1300 points, playing his first games. He knows clearly what he was doing, intending to disturb me in that drawish position, in order to force me to make blunders.
Could I insult my opponents and have the same weak punishment?
I am sure if this dirty and communist Russian put the same words that Gospodin has posted in a commentary, you will expel me from this site!
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Re: WHAT WE CANNOT CHANGE
Definitely no! Your English is understandable, you made your point come out clearly - English isn´t my native language either, but I have read a lot of postings in the internet written by English or American people which were hardly understandable because of inferior language. Yours is none of them.malakhov wrote: I have 2 problems here:
1- my poor English that do not allow me to express properly
I can see no "Anti-Russian atmosphere" on this site, especially not in this thread. Don´t put islanderfan´s prediction "the Russian will find it different somehow" (the only post with the word "Russian" in it - except from yours) into the wrong corner. You ARE Russian (as far as one can tell from your user name) and you HAVE a different opinion in this point, so his prediction has been proven correct.malakhov wrote: 2- The Anti-Russian atmosphere that is gaining ground in this site.
I wonder if I were an American, and if a Russian player were the offender, you had ruled the same or the opposite.
...
Could I insult my opponents and have the same weak punishment?
...
I am sure if this dirty and communist Russian put the same words that Gospodin has posted in a commentary, you will expel me from this site!
Greg issued a warning to your opponent, in a following post he explained his decision. His explanation didn´t contain the players´ nationalities, not by word and not between the lines. I do not agree to your assumption, that you would have been punished in another way if you had been the initial offender. Of course, that does not mean that you NOW have a "free shot" as well, I think you can imagine why.
One single (in my eyes harmless) remark containg the R-word, and you are writing expressions like "anti-Russian offenses", "chauvinistic and burlesque posts", "chauvinism and intolerance" and "dirty and communist Russian". The Cold War is over since decades and there is no reason for a conspiracy theory in an international but US-hosted chess-site.
I could have understood both decisions (warning because it´s the first time or forfeit because your opponent is an experienced player). It´s like a referee´s decision in football to show the yellow or the red card for a commited foul. Maybe it´s right, maybe it´s wrong, maybe someone else would have decided differently. A decision has been made, there´s no court of appeal for this site because it´s not part of a higher organization.malakhov wrote: Is GMiller God? No, he could make a mistake, but can correct it.
(Only in this sense): Yes, GMiller is God.
(Generally): Yes, he can make mistakes. Yes, he can correct them - but he is not forced to to that.
And yes, he does his best to keep this a place of chess and fun for as many people as possible.
To make things clear in the end:
I can see no one in this thread who is "defending a guy who insults in a chess game". Anyone would be annoyed by that, some would escalate by an even worse game comment, some would resign immediately and put him on their black list, some would ignore it and try even harder to give the answer on the 64 squares, you decided to request for official consequences (which is okay as well). It all depends on the personal temper which differs between people.
But no one of my pre-posters has written something like "His comment is okay for me." And I cannot read such between the lines either.
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Malakhov: You are using a 50 lb sledge hammer to drive finishing nails.
All the FIDE related rules you stated just simply do not apply here, unless the PRIVATE owner/operator decides it to be the case.
THAT is the point, sir, so it is time to stop acting like a petulant American teenager.
Please familiarize yourself with the concept of free will and stop trying to mind-rape people into agreeing with your convictions, lest you convince everyone you are more sociopath than anything else.
All the FIDE related rules you stated just simply do not apply here, unless the PRIVATE owner/operator decides it to be the case.
THAT is the point, sir, so it is time to stop acting like a petulant American teenager.
Please familiarize yourself with the concept of free will and stop trying to mind-rape people into agreeing with your convictions, lest you convince everyone you are more sociopath than anything else.
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Well, I'd have to concur with the sentiments expressed by islanderfan, rdecredico, snowblunder, and stonedmaster. I especially liked the "drive finishing nails with a 50-pound sledgehammer" - I thought that one was so appropriate.
There's one thing I think we can all agree with however: Our friend malakhov does make for interesting conversation.
Gotta thank him for that, I suppose!
There's one thing I think we can all agree with however: Our friend malakhov does make for interesting conversation.
Gotta thank him for that, I suppose!
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Some background information, taken from the actual position on the board:
White (malakhov) is continuing the game.
Comment of White: "Will you continue insulting me?"
Comment of Black: "I send you an apology in a message. Again, I am sorry. I found three draw offers in a row rather provocative."
Currently it is Black to move next, White has offered a draw (the fourth attempt?).
FIDE rules say that it is forbidden to disturb the opponent or to distract his concentration by any means. This paragraph especially includes permanent draw offers as one of these actions.
White (malakhov) is continuing the game.
Comment of White: "Will you continue insulting me?"
Comment of Black: "I send you an apology in a message. Again, I am sorry. I found three draw offers in a row rather provocative."
Currently it is Black to move next, White has offered a draw (the fourth attempt?).
FIDE rules say that it is forbidden to disturb the opponent or to distract his concentration by any means. This paragraph especially includes permanent draw offers as one of these actions.
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I've just read through this thread in its entirety and am genuinely impressed
by the total tonnage of restraint and indulgence that have been extended to
Malakhov by the members of this site as well as by Greg.
The most recent post by slowblunder should be sufficient alone to stop any
continuation of this matter.
Personally,my saturation borders had been permanently breached when
Malakhov posted "I will not be in a good psychological condition to continue that game, so if you decide that it will continue, the offender, the agressor, the hooligan will be the beneficiary of your unfair jugdement." This was
well before Malakhov introduced the totally bogus charge of a growing
anti-Russian prejudice existing on this forum.
So,I would like to suggest to Malakhov that he either continue the game or
resign it...without any further protestations of outrage or,in fact,any comment whatsoever.
That's it.
Regards,
David
by the total tonnage of restraint and indulgence that have been extended to
Malakhov by the members of this site as well as by Greg.
The most recent post by slowblunder should be sufficient alone to stop any
continuation of this matter.
Personally,my saturation borders had been permanently breached when
Malakhov posted "I will not be in a good psychological condition to continue that game, so if you decide that it will continue, the offender, the agressor, the hooligan will be the beneficiary of your unfair jugdement." This was
well before Malakhov introduced the totally bogus charge of a growing
anti-Russian prejudice existing on this forum.
So,I would like to suggest to Malakhov that he either continue the game or
resign it...without any further protestations of outrage or,in fact,any comment whatsoever.
That's it.
Regards,
David
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All this is NOT making for a fun site nor fun games!
Chess should be fun
In either case and regardless of any "reasoning" Id also demand immadiate resignation and never interact wioth that particular again!
This is far from the "Glastnost" era and I have never seen any of that glaring predjudice nor hints thereof here...
LIGHTEN UP
HAVE FUN
CHAT
Chess should be fun
In either case and regardless of any "reasoning" Id also demand immadiate resignation and never interact wioth that particular again!
This is far from the "Glastnost" era and I have never seen any of that glaring predjudice nor hints thereof here...
LIGHTEN UP
HAVE FUN
CHAT
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- Uranium
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Brian,ny friend, once again those smiley faces at the end of your posts concerning me prevent me from taking any offence.
However,nothing can dissuade me from carefully scrutinizing the flight plan
of any of my cross-country trips to ensure that the flight's safety is never
knowingly dependent on your competence as an air traffic controller. Only
kidding,old sport.
Love,
David
However,nothing can dissuade me from carefully scrutinizing the flight plan
of any of my cross-country trips to ensure that the flight's safety is never
knowingly dependent on your competence as an air traffic controller. Only
kidding,old sport.
Love,
David
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A draw offer from player A that is rejected by player B cannot be re-offered by Player A until the opponent B first makes a counter draw offer that is rejected by Player A.islanderfan wrote:I thought you were only allowed to offer draw one time? If this is true, then Malakhov got what he had coming.
So, in order for this to happen, the position would have to be going back and forth such that Player A would first offer a draw which is rejected, then later declines (!) a draw, and then makes his 2nd offer.
So repeated offers are possible, but only following this Byzantine course of events. Of course, the consummate professional already knows this....
Where have you read that stupid rule?rdecredico wrote:A draw offer from player A that is rejected by player B cannot be re-offered by Player A until the opponent B first makes a counter draw offer that is rejected by Player A.islanderfan wrote:I thought you were only allowed to offer draw one time? If this is true, then Malakhov got what he had coming.
So, in order for this to happen, the position would have to be going back and forth such that Player A would first offer a draw which is rejected, then later declines (!) a draw, and then makes his 2nd offer.
So repeated offers are possible, but only following this Byzantine course of events. Of course, the consummate professional already knows this....
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In a book.malakhov wrote:
Where have you read that stupid rule?
"14B5 REPEATED OFFERS
Repeated draw offers may be construed as annoying the opponent, and penalties are possible at the discretion of the TD (20G). If the first offer is declined it is improper to offer another draw unless the opponent has since offered a draw or the position has changed substantially."
Reading is fundamental. Try it~! You may like it or even learn something!
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Malakhov said---"GM Ivan Cheparinov was punished by the TD of Wijk Ann Zee B 2009 (category 16) for breaking this law, in his game against GM Nigel Short."
Actually, he wasnt punished. Short felt he was insulted by his opponent, who refused to shake his hand and made a complaint to the arbiter and pushed the arbiter into making an erroneous decision (forfeit). Later, the Appeals Committee (Kramnik, Polgar and Krasenkow) decided that the game should be replayed. There was no punishment!
Actually, he wasnt punished. Short felt he was insulted by his opponent, who refused to shake his hand and made a complaint to the arbiter and pushed the arbiter into making an erroneous decision (forfeit). Later, the Appeals Committee (Kramnik, Polgar and Krasenkow) decided that the game should be replayed. There was no punishment!
juselton wrote:Malakhov said---"GM Ivan Cheparinov was punished by the TD of Wijk Ann Zee B 2009 (category 16) for breaking this law, in his game against GM Nigel Short."
Actually, he wasnt punished. Short felt he was insulted by his opponent, who refused to shake his hand and made a complaint to the arbiter and pushed the arbiter into making an erroneous decision (forfeit). Later, the Appeals Committee (Kramnik, Polgar and Krasenkow) decided that the game should be replayed. There was no punishment!
Better not confuse Malakhov with facts. He finds them a bit annoying unless he uses them.
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For those who don´t want to read:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Gb4lJeXqI
And part 2, after Cheparinov had apologized officially:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbIheG-mztI
(I must admit, I remember to have seen handshakes which appeared even more cordial. But in their next game they kissed, I am still searching for the video - oops, no hint to the initial post!)
For those who are interested in the game itself (are there any?):
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1482318
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Gb4lJeXqI
And part 2, after Cheparinov had apologized officially:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbIheG-mztI
(I must admit, I remember to have seen handshakes which appeared even more cordial. But in their next game they kissed, I am still searching for the video - oops, no hint to the initial post!)
For those who are interested in the game itself (are there any?):
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1482318
I have read his posts here. And I like it. Colourful people makes life more fun. Would be boring if everyone always walked the middle road. He has strong opinions on how things should be, he don't care if others have a more relaxed approach to the issues he writes about. I like it. Better to have it in chess than in politics.cliff wrote:Any of my replies to Mahlakov would serve no good, and would likely be deleted, so allow me to say....I expect this type of post from him.
He's a very interesting (?) person...
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rawat wrote: I have read his posts here. And I like it. Colourful people makes life more fun. Would be boring if everyone always walked the middle road. He has strong opinions on how things should be, he don't care if others have a more relaxed approach to the issues he writes about. I like it. Better to have it in chess than in politics.
I, too, love colorful people, assertive ones and even some those bristling with arrogance.
However, dogmatism grown from the seeds of ignorance and watered with the over reactive juices of victim-mentality add up to instable decaying planetary orbit getting ready to death spiral into the local sun.
I normally prefer to view it from afar rather than intersect it's path to start exploring since it's deteriorating trajectory does not seem correctable.
rdecredico wrote:
However, dogmatism grown from the seeds of ignorance and watered with the over reactive juices of victim-mentality add up to instable decaying planetary orbit getting ready to death spiral into the local sun.
I normally prefer to view it from afar rather than intersect it's path to start exploring since it's deteriorating trajectory does not seem correctable.
WOW!
If there was an award for the most 'colourful reply' here, I think you just won it, partner!!!
(I think we'll call it the "Jean Luc Picard Award"!)