Pronunciation of chess names

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cornstalk
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 1999 1:42 pm

Pronunciation of chess names

Post by cornstalk » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:05 pm

Pronunciation in chess isn't easy to learn.

Pirc isn't "Pirk," its "Pierts."

It isn't "NAZH-dorf," it's NAI-dorf.

Euwe isn't Yooie, its UEH-ve (a little like oeuvre).

It isn't Bo-GOL-yoo-bov, it's bo-gol-YOO-bov.

It isn't BOT-vinn-ik, it's bot-VEEN-ik (am I right about that one?)

Steiner is pronounced SHteiner, and Bronstein is BronSHtein.

The "R" is properly given a slight roll, and it comes out close to "KEHR-es."

It isn't AL-ek-ein, it's al-YECH-in (again, it's that right?)

All those "--vili" names have endings pronounced VEE-ly, like gap-rin-dash-VEE-li.

But how, OH HOW, does one properly say "Maroczy?"

And what about Scheveningen? The final "g" is soft, right?

And how to refer to the game, Mysliwiec-Krzyzanowski, (postal 1995)?

tellymetwise
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Post by tellymetwise » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:56 am

as for the (beautifull) beach-village by the Hague,
Scheveningen is pronounced as: sghey fu nin(g)un
first g is hard, (almost as if preparing a flume)
ending in the hey, or dutch long e (long e = hey, but with silenced h)
the second (g) is soft, as in the english winning

as for russian names, aren't they all stressed on the second last syllable?

juselton
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Post by juselton » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:17 am

I was wondering how the authorities arrive at the proper pronunciation, and just who are the authorities? I always thought a man should know the proper way to pronounce his name, or to be more blunt---however a man pronounces his name is the proper way to say it.

Let's look at Euwe. The 1984 edition of the Oxford Companion to Chess says it's pronounced ervour as in fervour. However, the 1992 edition of the Oxford Companion to Chess says it's pronounced erwe as in Derwent.

Now I'm sure Hooper and Whyld both knew Euwe intimately and heard him pronounce his name hundreds of times as did many others in the chess world. As president of fide Euwe travelled the world over many times---why is his name such a mystery? Reinfeld in "The Treasury of Chess Lore" said Euwes sounds like nervous. Euwe was the man who put the laurel wreath around Fischers neck. Surely, somebody must know how to say this guy's name.

Remember Phil Donahue, the talk show host, he had Ted Kennedy as his guest on his tv show and all during the interview Kennedy kept referring to Donahue as Don-a-who. After kennedy had left Donahue was talking to the audience and someone asked him why he didnt correct Kennedy when he mis-pronouned his name. Donahue said---"Me correct a Kennedy on how to pronounce an Irish name---I dont think so!

cornstalk
Posts: 52
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Maroczy?

Post by cornstalk » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:04 pm

Thanks for Scheveningen. I had had no idea.

Now who knows Maroczy? The only clue I have is that is once knew a Zieliaskewicz who pronounced her name "zell-uh-SKEV-itch." So does that make it "MAHR-o-chee?"

juselton
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Scheveningen

Post by juselton » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:26 am

I have an old audio tape of Michael Stean "working with a Grandmaster" in which he analyzes a sicilian Scheveningen game against Leon Piasetsky in Yugoslavia. Michael Stean pronounces Scheveningen---'Skay'-'vuning'-'un'-with the accent on the Skay.

redketchuplover
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Post by redketchuplover » Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:50 pm

Fischer is now pronounced "koo koo"

tellymetwise
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Re: Scheveningen

Post by tellymetwise » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:20 am

juselton wrote:I have an old audio tape of Michael Stean "working with a Grandmaster" in which he analyzes a sicilian Scheveningen game against Leon Piasetsky in Yugoslavia. Michael Stean pronounces Scheveningen---'Skay'-'vuning'-'un'-with the accent on the Skay.
Do you also have an audio on how russians try to pronounce Scheveningen?

cornstalk
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Maroczy! My kingdom for a Maroczy!

Post by cornstalk » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:44 pm

I keep asking, and no one replies, how does one say Maroczy? :(

wulebgr
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Post by wulebgr » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:35 pm

Maroczy (MAR-ot-see), Geza - Hungarian Grandmaster

I googled "pronounce Maroczy" http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/ ... onounc.htm
Wulebgr

“From a fish’s point of view, a wulebgr is a leech.”

juselton
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Post by juselton » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:52 am

tellymewwise ask:
"Do you also have an audio on how russians try to pronounce Scheveningen?"

Like I said---I have a tape of Michael Stean, an educated man, a Grandmaster, a guy who has probably been to Scheveningen---pronouncing the word. These GMs all seem to know each other and talk the same lingo. He has probably heard the name pronounced in several languages including Russian and this is the way he says it.

Sir, I really dont know what is the point of your question.

dmitryogloblin
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Post by dmitryogloblin » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:41 am

Just correction about Botvinnik, you would prononce it just as it is written and it is certainly not: bot-VEEN-ik.
I would write Alehin in this way and not Alechin, but it depends what language you are using to spell. If it is English then closest to how it sounds in Russian spelling will be Alehin, but if it is German - then you better spell it like Alechin.
About Scheveningen - I would imagine that we Russians, prononce it just the same way Germans do.
Maroczy in Russian is prononced with cz as "tz" in russian word tzar. All vowels in this word are prononced as in closed syllables.

tellymetwise
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Post by tellymetwise » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:01 am

juselton wrote:tellymewwise ask:
Sir, I really dont know what is the point of your question.
Dmitri already answered it juselton.

Thank you Dmitri.

juselton
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Post by juselton » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:38 am

Well, Ken Neat, who has collaborated with such authors as Dvoretsky on " The School of Chess Excellence" and Bronstein on "Bronstein on the King's Indian" and has probably translated more Russian books into English than any other writer pronounces it -bot-VEEN-nik.

He also says AL-a-kine. He pronounces Euwe as ER-vuh and bo-gol-YOO-bov.

From the audio tape "The Greatest Player Alexander Alekhine" written and narrated by Ken Neat.

tellymetwise
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Post by tellymetwise » Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:03 am

For your info Juselton,

Accent is quite a common fenomenon in the world.
People who are English native speaking have problems with some fowels or consonants and therefore pronounce it with an English accent.

Those who post in this thread are trying to show others how its pronounced in native Russian (Dmitri), or native Dutch (me).

I do hope you consider your replies in view of someones background
and more important, someone's goal.

juselton
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Post by juselton » Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:31 am

I heard Kasparov on national public radio yesterday. Kasparov was a close, personal friend of Botvinnik for many years. Kasparov says BOT-vin-nik. Im sure thats the way Botvinnik said it too. I guess we can forget how all the pundits pronounce Botvinnik, if Kasparov says BOT-vin-nik---thats good enough for me.

cornstalk
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 1999 1:42 pm

Post by cornstalk » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:42 pm

dmitryogloblin wrote:Just correction about Botvinnik, you would prononce it just as it is written and it is certainly not: bot-VEEN-ik.
I would write Alehin in this way and not Alechin, but it depends what language you are using to spell.
Thank you for that correction about Botvinnik,but which syllable gets the accent. Also which syllable in "Alehin?" But isn't the "h" in this supposed to be pronounced "kh" as in Kholmov? That's what I meant by "ch," but that would be an incorrect English transliteration.

cornstalk
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Post by cornstalk » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:52 pm

juselton wrote:I guess we can forget how all the pundits pronounce Botvinnik, if Kasparov says BOT-vin-nik---thats good enough for me.
Dear juselton,

I am not a pundit, just someone trying to figure out how to pronounce, properly, some chess-related proper names.

But if, as you avow, you yourself are not curious on these points, why do you keep posting in this thread? Just pronounce "Scheveningen" however you like, and go get lost.

I am still trying to figure out how properly to say "Maroczy!" Does anyone know?

Best.

tellymetwise
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:48 pm

Post by tellymetwise » Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:17 pm

Maroczy is pronounced MAro(t)shi with soft (t). As pronounced by a russian classmate. Don't overdo it on the stress.

juselton
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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 6:17 am

Post by juselton » Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:13 pm

Cornstalk, I apologize if I offended you. I have nothing but respect for you and your accomplishments in chess. I know you have a masters rating in over the board chess and a senior masters rating in correspondence chess. You wrote a monthly column for the Campbell Report "hard Chess" which was well received by chess players everywhere. You've had outstanding sucesses as a chess instructor, taking your young students to the highest honors in your state. I know you are a student of chess history with a vast accumulation of chess knowledge.

You have probably forgotten more about chess than I will ever know and when I see your name in a chess thread---I know I will read something interesting and enlightening. I consider you a pundit only in the very best sense of that word.

cornstalk
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 1999 1:42 pm

No, >I< aplogize!

Post by cornstalk » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:46 pm

juselton,

Sorry if that was testy. My time to apologize, not yours.

My chess accomplishments are very slight, but like you, I do love the game.

Best.

juselton
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 6:17 am

Post by juselton » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:14 am

no apology needed.

stay well

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