Stupidity blooms even in the desert

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kasimzhanov
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:51 am

Stupidity blooms even in the desert

Post by kasimzhanov » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:42 am

With surprise, frequently I can observe unsportmanlike attitudes in Net-Chess :x . A normal game in live chess or in other clubs of Chess by Correspondence (as ICCF) usually has three moments:

1st. to obtain advantage.
2nd. to carry the advantage.
3rd to obtain a decisive advantage.
And then is when the opponent surely resigns.

No game in master level or even club level continues till one checkmates. Never a player continues to play a position without a slightest chance. Nobody tests you if you know how to win for instances a position with a Queen and 3 Pawns, against 3 Pawns (and all of them far away from promotion). Unless a player is in a severe time-trouble, the opponent knows how to resign avoiding to make you waste time continuing a completely lost game.

The Checkmate is the aim of our game, but only happens in Patzers´s games.

But in Net Chess, lamentably very often we must play (or suffer) the fourth stage that I called "the stupidity show". What I mean?
Realizing that the game is completely lost, our opponents begin to delay the moves. If the game was played with a time control of 30 days plus 2 days for move, till this stage our opponent had played a move for a day. But reaching this fourth stage, and having in the 50th. move, 80 days left, the start to play a move in a week or more!

They are not in difficult positions, the are completely lost and even they could get Kasparov or Topalov´s advice, they also would lose unavoidably.

For instance look Game: g1104688659
Here Mr. Gsmaior in move 12 losed his Queen. I have more than three points of material advantage in move 13 and in a normal game every wise player would resign.
But Gsmaior continues... and in move 27 (I had played well this game and increase my positional and material advantage) he is seven points behind and in a mate position. What player would continue such position?

Now in move 41, I have an overwhelming advantage...

He told me: "This is not true. There is no rule in chess that says that i have to resign. All the games finish or by mate, or by resign, if the player want this. My next movement only in next year. Happy new year for you !"

I said: "Ut is not a rule but is a norm of chess etica not to continue a completely lost game. When you play live chess do you continue till your opponent checkmates you? I am not going to you to greet for Christmas and Happy New Year because you you do not deserve it."

He has 64 days left and doesn´t played since 12/23...

Look at the position in g1104691098

Gstevenson is in a Rook and three Pawns dissadventage and soon will be with his King fihgting alone against my Rook. I have material, the iniciative, better king, far passed pawns, etc. In a normal club game who can continue this with White?

Look game g1096871498.

Reedrook could not resign as a gentleman do, and lose by time in move 74 in a Queen, King and Pawn against King position. That game lasted more than 9 months and he began employing lots of days since move 52 when he was totally lost.

Look g1099687476.

Kostaspetidis had losen a Rook in move 42 and continued till I checkmate him.

I tried to untherstand why some player do that:

1- With their attitude they try to tire us, having to waste money and time continuying a stupid position. What is the fun of playing a Queen and King vs. King position, and your opponent lasted seven or more days in make the unique moves?

Mr Miller this attitudes expel players from your site. Probably they win by tiresome, but the player who loses the game sick of unsportmanlike conducts, never will player in Net Chess.

2- Sometimes they brazenly offer draw in desperate positions. And frequently achieve their aim.

3- In other times, we had been sucessful in having a decissive advantage against a player 200 points ahead our rating. We were going to win twenty or more points, when surprising our opponent lost a lot of points during the long waiting till he resigns.
I have won games that lasted many months (for the stupid delay of resigning) and in the end adding a few or 0 points because my opponents mysteriously had lost a lot of points in a match where they were defeated.

You must do something to hinder this unsportmanlike conducts. I suggest to found a Ethica Tribunal with three veteran members of Net-Chess to penalize this attitudes.

Sorry for my English (I am Russian speaker). Happy New Year!

wulebgr
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Re: Stupidity blooms even in the desert

Post by wulebgr » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:50 am

kasimzhanov wrote: I have won games that lasted many months (for the stupid delay of resigning) and in the end adding a few or 0 points because my opponents mysteriously had lost a lot of points in a match where they were defeated.
I have stubbornly resisted resigning in a clearly lost position because my opponent had recently lost (mysteriously) more than 500 rating points. That game was the only one here that my opponent violated the canons of sportmanship by asking me to resign.
Wulebgr

“From a fish’s point of view, a wulebgr is a leech.”

kasimzhanov
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:51 am

Humbug

Post by kasimzhanov » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:09 am

I have never played Wulebgr. I have never lost 500 points. The maximum rating I had was 2412, I fell down to 2200 when I stop playing and nowadays I am in 2305.

wbartier
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:30 am
Location: Oostende, Belgium

Post by wbartier » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:32 am

Hello,

It 's not only a problem on this site. Everyone had this problem, also I. I never play games for 30 + 1 or 2. That solves a part of the problem.

See Ye
Wieland

slowblunder
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:23 pm

different people - different attitudes

Post by slowblunder » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:36 am

Kasimzhanov complains about unsportsmanlike behaviour in NetChess. I also play in another correspondence chess site - the same complaints, the same discussion. This is not a NetChess-problem!

Some find it unsportsmanlike when an opponent resigns because they want to play until mate (not my opinion, but I can live with it). I will not do them a favour and play until mate in a lost position, and they must live with it as well.

Some think it is unsportsmanlike to ask the opponent to resign (I am one of those!). There are better ways than to do that directly, it is a question of courtesy way as well.

Some think it is okay to call the opponents "idiots" or "stupid" when they don´t behave as one wants them to. These insults won´t change anything, they just show the own helplessness with this situation. Some weeks ago there was a similar thread initialized by another Russian who stated that it is normal there to call those opponents "idiots" when they don´t resign. Now I am afraid that this is true.
Fortunately this is a worldwide site, and others are allowed to play their moves whenever they want to as long as they don´t break any FIDE chess rules or NetChess internal rules - or run out of the NetChess time limits. I am not sure if vice versa everyone has to accept that other players call them names.

I decided to play at this site, so I have to meet this site´s rules, respect other players and accept the webmaster´s decisions. Otherwise I must leave consequently (in the thread mentioned above another player decided to leave - own choice, okay).

I agree to the anger that a player who has lost hundreds of rating points (from 2500 to 2000) because of mass timeouts or resignations is counted as a 2000-player when I finish my game with him. This is not good for my rating, no matter if I win or lose - he still is a player with 2500 strength. Is this the reason for the rating floor?

I wish a happy new year 2006 for EVERYONE (fast, slow, excellent, average, angry, calm, winning, losing, ...)

mburden
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2001 8:09 am

stupidity etc

Post by mburden » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:56 pm

well i agree with the sentiment, but it happens everywhere - turn based or on line.

But people play on:-
to learn
their opponent up set them in some way
you may make a mistake and they win
that's the way they are
they may not see it

enjoy the game for the challenge it gives you, if they play on then make sure you beat them in as few a moves as possible

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:18 pm

Players have every right to continue until checkmate, it's no more of an inconvenience to you than it is to them. They just don't have the right to abandon a game in progress. It's annoying, I agree, but any alternative would likley be worse.

I find this is actually less of a problem than in over the board chess. In the OTB turnaments I run, I'd say at least 1 out of 4 end in either checkmate or a flag fall. It's just part of chess we have to live with.

gmchess
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:42 am

A good idea.

Post by gmchess » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:17 pm

It is a good idea to conform a Ethics Tribunal. Three members of Net Chess with experience, impartiality and good judgement. They should sanction with loss of points, or of rating to those that has unsportmanlike attitudes.
Kasimzhanov is right in complaining. There are some countries where is very expensive enter to Internet, only in order to play an absurd position.

bret
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Re: Stupidity blooms even in the desert

Post by bret » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:04 am

kasimzhanov wrote: No game in master level or even club level continues till one checkmates. Never a player continues to play a position without a slightest chance.
How about Grandmaster level seven days ago?

[Event "ch-RUS Superfinal"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2005.12.23"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Volkov,S1"]
[Black "Morozevich,A"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2614"]
[BlackElo "2707"]
[EventDate "2005.12.19"]
[ECO "E46"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 O-O 5. Nge2 Re8 6. a3 Bf8 7. g3 d5 8.
cxd5 exd5 9. Bg2 a5 10. O-O Na6 11. Bd2 c6 12. Rc1 Nc7 13. Na4 Ne6 14. b4
Ne4 15. Be1 axb4 16. axb4 Nd6 17. Nc5 Nc7 18. Nb3 h5 19. Na5 h4 20. Nf4
hxg3 21. hxg3 Ne6 22. Nd3 Ng5 23. g4 f5 24. Ne5 fxg4 25. Nxg4 Ngf7 26. f4
Bxg4 27. Qxg4 Rxe3 28. f5 Ne4 29. Nxb7 Qf6 30. Rd1 Ra2 31. Nc5 Bxc5 32.
bxc5 Ree2 33. Bf3 Rh2 34. Bxe4 dxe4 35. Bf2 Qh6 36. Qxe4 Re2 37. Qg4 Ng5
38. Qg3 Nh3+ 39. Kxh2 Nxf2+ 40. Kg1 Qh1# 0-1

gmchess wrote:It is a good idea to conform a Ethics Tribunal. Three members of Net Chess with experience, impartiality and good judgement. They should sanction with loss of points, or of rating to those that has unsportmanlike attitudes.
Ratings show strength, not ethics or attitudes.

So look at the above game and tell me how many points to take from Volkov for his unsportsmanship?
________________________________

I know it can be a pain when some people do not want to resign, but if the position is so easy ... start new games and deal with the easy positions when they finally move. Or better yet, play their game. Take all the pieces, Queen all your pawns, and deliver a checkmate that shows they are foolish.

slowblunder
Posts: 77
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Maybe I am wrong, but ...

Post by slowblunder » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:54 am

GM Rustam Kasimdzhanov won the FIDE world championship in 2004, is the current number 30 in the FIDE world ranking list and lives in Germany (as I read by googling) playing on board #1 in the German first division (Bundesliga).
(Okay, I could enter the name of Robert Fischer (country: Iceland) in my profile as well, just to make my opponents tremble - so it isn´t sure which real person is playing when you play in the internet.)
gmchess wrote:Kasimzhanov is right in complaining. There are some countries where is very expensive enter to Internet, only in order to play an absurd position.
My internet flatrate (from Germany) makes less than 10 Euros (approx. 1 Euro = 1 dollar) per month, for the whole family, three PCs and 24 hours a day if we like.

I agree that it is boring to make stupid/silly/or whatever moves in games which are clearly decided and get the feeling that the opponent is a bad player or looser and only wants to drag the game. But it´s "only" a waste of time and not a waste of money - just one look when I am logged in at NetChess (for the other games !!!) and maximum five mouse clicks per move (if it is my silly turn), 20 seconds should be more than enough.

I like the feature "email notification" very much, so I only have to log in after I received a message - and I can even analyze the new position in advance because my opponent´s move is in the message. Great, even when I don´t have to keep an eye at online prices!

A little anecdote among patzers: In one of my early games at NetChess I was distracted and moved hastily "online", I overlooked a simple fork and lost a knight. I was angry with me and wrote to the opponent that I would take some time for the continuation and still weren´t sure if resignation was a better solution.
His reply: "Don´t worry, take your time. Anyway, I am sure I will blunder as well later in the game - don´t give up hope."
He was right, but I am not proud of this game, of course.

gsmaior
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:14 am

Mr. Kasimzhanov lies

Post by gsmaior » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:37 am

Mr. Kasimzhanov is lying. He do not tell the complete history. He do not say that he do not respect his opponents, and make fun and jokes with the games of his opponents. Only because this behaviour of Mr. kasimzhanov i decide to play the game until the last movement, i have this right. The game of chess ends with a checkmate or with the resign of one of the players. But the resign do not occur because the better opponent desires it. All the players have to respect his opponents, and Mr. Kasimzhanov until now do not learn this. Sorry about my poor english, i am brazilian.

gmiller
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Re: A good idea.

Post by gmiller » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:44 pm

gmchess wrote:It is a good idea to conform a Ethics Tribunal.
Let's say this actually happens. How is the tribunal going to determine when someone should resign? Are they going to analyze the games themselves to determine if the game is lost? Will they use a computer? If the position turns out not to be lost, how will the tribunal inform the player making the claim without giving advice on the game?

Approximatley half of the users on this site are from outside the USA, and it would be wise to assume that many don't speak English at all. How are these players to be informed of the new rule? How are they to be informed of claims against them? These players can currently show up and play because the rules of chess are pretty much the same accross the globe, and changing that would not be good.

I've never, ever heard of a player loosing rating points as a disiplinary action. As Bret said, ratings are a measure of a players strength, once you start including things not related to a player's strength you screw the whole system up. The only disiplinary action applied to ratings by the USCF I've every heard about is to add a rating floor for people who are sandbagging. The point being to make their rating more accurate, not less accurate.

So, if you can't use rating points to punish a player, how do you punish them? Ban them from the site?

IMHO, there is no perfect solution to this problem. And the best solution is to just let players play their games out as they are allowed in any other chess organization.

leen
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Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:04 am

Post by leen » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:22 am

I don't understand the trouble... winning a won game is easy, it takes 5 seconds a move...so what? And trying to humiliate opponents by giving these comments isn't very nice too..(maybe one of your opponents is a child that is just learning chess??) the rules are the rules and people can play till the very last move..no problem for me...

gstevenson
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2000 3:11 pm

Post by gstevenson » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:19 pm

kasimzhanov, i understand you being upset with some opponents not willing to resign, but sir I am not one of them. People that have played against me in the past also no that I am not one to play a game that I have no chance at winning. The only reason I had not resigned in the game that you mentioned is because I wanted to be sure that you read the comment that I wrote. If you recall, my comment stated "There is not a snowball chance in h--- that I could win this game". If you would pull the stick out of your butt, you would have realized that I was going to resign based on my comment. My plan was to resign the very next move, which I actually did b/4 I read this comment that you wrote. I'm glad I did, because had I read this comment first, I just may have continued to play just to irritate you. :)

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:32 pm

...and they all lived happily ever after.

bret
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Post by bret » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:37 pm

Not happy yet ... what is this guy up too??

http://www.net-chess.com/matchstats.cgi?id=m1134479507

All games in the above match are the same?

bret
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Joined: Mon Mar 22, 1999 10:19 pm

Post by bret » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:47 pm

Same thing here

http://www.net-chess.com/matchstats.cgi?id=m1132791041

again ... with same player!

http://www.net-chess.com/matchstats.cgi?id=m1132790843

again!!!! ... with same player!

http://www.net-chess.com/matchstats.cgi?id=m1132788193

Looks like we have found a fraud on the site. :?:

parkejo
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:56 am

Post by parkejo » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:19 pm

Nice job, Bret! You helped the guy find out why his internet bill is so high! Just think how much $ he'll save by limiting his play to other (real) opponents, instead of all those games against himself?

I wonder if he calls himself an idiot?

Can gmiller just erase this thread and we can all pretend it never happened?

parkejo
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Re: Stupidity blooms even in the desert

Post by parkejo » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:26 pm

kasimzhanov wrote:I have won games that lasted many months (for the stupid delay of resigning) and in the end adding a few or 0 points because my opponents mysteriously had lost a lot of points in a match where they were defeated.
Maybe Mr. K has made up fake games to get himself back to the rating he would have been in had the other player not mysteriously lost all those points.

What would a tribunal have to say about that?

davidswhite
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That's all,brother!!!

Post by davidswhite » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:26 pm

If some may consider it too drastic to ban him from the site
and/or prohibit any further postings on this forum from him,
then I would propose alternatively to have his fingers removed.

bret
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 1999 10:19 pm

Post by bret » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:01 am

So the tribunal of bret - davidswhite - parkejo ... through ESP and secret finger codes have ruled that:

300 points should be deducted from player kasimzhanov rating. However, upon notice that no more complaints will be lodged against player gstevenson, the rating deduction will only apply to his ICCF rating.

It was further resolved by thought to parkejo (from David) who passed the thought to me, that kasimzhanov should resign upon the first move of any future game against David. Since any position against David is a losing position there is no need to even make a move, or to play the game out.

Play Against Bobby!
http://net-chess.com/profile.php?username=flavio

slowblunder
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:23 pm

correction and clarification

Post by slowblunder » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:42 am

Meanwhile I have changed my mind, I don´t think any more that the "real" Mr Kasimdzhanov (with a "d" in his name) is playing and posting here as "kasimzhanov" (without the "d").

Hint 1:
White (kasimzhanov) - Black (n.n.), played at NetChess
1. d4 Nf6
2. Bg5 c6
3. e3 Qa5+
winning a bishop

A real GM would either resign at once (fingerfehlers can even happen in correspondence chess) or try to win this game because the opponent doesn´t appear to be a fellow professional. But in move 6 both agreed to a draw game.

Hint 2:
There seems to be a "club" of at least ten handles at NetChess, this club´s members play/played tons of games internally, all these games are finished with 12 or 13 moves. Some are always loosing, others always winning, the rest wins versus the "loosers" and looses versus the winners. As bret already stated the games are identical/very similar, so it looks very much like rating manipulation.
Some are only playing within this club, others with non-members, too.
I can´t imagine that ten different persons are responsible for this show, probably only one. Anyway, a "real" GM will use his time better than playing or being part of this silly game.


I apologize deeply to the "real" Mr Kasimdzhanov (although he might never read these lines) that I initially thought he could have been the person behind the handle "kasimzhanov" and that readers of my post may have got the same impression. I wish you all the best for your career and a lot of nice and successful games and tournaments.


The following statement is the one I like best in the whole thread, not only because it is the first one:
kasimzhanov wrote:With surprise, frequently I can observe unsportmanlike attitudes in Net-Chess.

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