Unsportsmanlike Conduct

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awacs
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Unsportsmanlike Conduct

Post by awacs » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:13 pm

I have two games (2004 tourney) with a particular player, g1100135974 and g1100135975. I was winning in the first, and losing in the second. The opponent kept offering me draws in -74. I kept declining.

Finally, he offered to draw BOTH games (I presume this can found in the logs). I decided to accept, so I drew -74 and sent a draw offer with my move (isn't that the only way?) on -75. All on December 20th.

The next day he writes back with his move,
"You are completely lost here... is so late to accept draw."

(Parenthetically, the web page has the comments reversed, as if *I* had said that; that, however, is most emphatically *not* the case.)

How is the next day "so late"? And, what of our deal?

Since then, I've written him twice, but he's not seen fit to reply.

So, I'd like the admin to either:

a) draw g1100135975, or
b) restore g1100135974 to active status, with no time penalty.

It shocks and saddens me that unsportsmanlike conduct like this happens here ... maybe it shouldn't. :-(

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:46 pm

I'm not sure what's more unsportsmanlike, making an agreement to draw a lost/won game, or making the agreement but not following through with it. Individual games should be lost, won, or drawn based soley on what's happening on the board. If you want to base the result on something else, I don't think I want to hear about it, so I'll let you two sort it out.

echamberlain
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Which is more unsportsmanlike?

Post by echamberlain » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:43 pm

Greg, I think that if the logs back up what awacs claims at the beginning of this thread, you should take one of the actions he requests. One player violated ettiquette by repeated draw offers. He may not have known any better. One player offered and one player accepted, an offer to draw both games. To me it's very possible that neither had thought about how that would impact the other competitors. But I would hope that veryone in the world realizes that if you offer someone a deal and they accept, you generally should not change your mind. If he had been overcome with remorse about the offer and suggested double forefeit of both games, or restoration of the one where he gained a draw he did not deserve, I could see him as the more ethical of the two. As it is, he seems to be a scheming cheat. If you leave it to them to sort out their differences, he will have a half point more in the tournament than his play deserves. How will you feel if he advances or awacs fails to advance by that half point margin?

chessonly
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Post by chessonly » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:52 am

+1
I am with echamberlain here
Doh not using Mouse gestures ?

cohonas
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Post by cohonas » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:27 am

I agree too with echamberlain.

cornstalk
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Legality, not sportsmanship, is the question.

Post by cornstalk » Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:31 pm

In this thread here is too much concern for sportsmanship and too little for rules. It is the latter which must govern outcomes in games of chess.

I've thought about this case, and I've decided that Greg's is correct in his decision to let play continue in the disputed game.

Here on net-chess, there is only one way for the server to recognize a draw: the draw is offered with the move, and the opponent accepts. When a draw is offered in a separate message and not with the offering player's move, which happened in the game disputed, there is no way to get the server to recognize the draw except to return a move and to make one's own draw offer. But the rules of chess are clear that a move constitutes rejection of a draw offer, and cancels the offering player's obligation. Awacs' opponent, having seen awacs' move, was confronted with a NEW position and was at liberty to reject awacs' offer. His own offer was no longer on the table. It really does not matter that this is not "fair" to awacs according to someone's idea of fairness. The rules are the rules, and without them, all would be chaos.

Also I do not think we want to impose upon Greg the burden of implementing draws which are agreed upon by nonstandard means. He already has enough to do in running this excellent site.

P.S. In general in correspondence chess, you CANNOT offer draws in bundles of games. In fact, if you say, "I offer you a draw in all games -- and you must accept all or none," your opponent is at perfect liberty to accept the ones he wants and to continue play in the other games. The last part of your offer is illegal, but the first part is binding.

neric
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Post by neric » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:23 am

The combined draw offer is a difficult subject indeed because of the client-limitations. Maybe we should have a button for it like "Select games to make a draw offer" and then "Accept the combined draw offer" (yes/no).

On the other side this is simply unsportsmanlike conduct by the opponent, so the outcome should be to either continue both games or to draw both. Besides that I would issue a warning to the opponent and if this continues then ban him from the server.

neric
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Post by neric » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:26 am

ROFL - just noticed it's Kasimdzanov he is playing. Well, that guy is a bit special. He has very strange manners and acts like a kid.

echamberlain
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Further Thoughts

Post by echamberlain » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:43 pm

Cornstalk gave me food for reflection. His piece is well thought out and well written, but I must still disagree. Certainly, without rules, everything is chaos. However, I thought that in Chess, and particullarly under FIDE and ICCF rules, we had people called Arbiters who would enforce upon competiitors generally accepted notions of sportsmanship. When I came here, I expected something similar. I would also hope that the programming of the website (in this case the mechanism for offering draws) would not be as non-negotiable as the rules regarding how chessmen move.

I recall when I joined this community not very long ago, I read through a page about the site's rules. Is it possible to re-access that page? Does that page say that draw offers in multiple games are independent of each other? Perhaps we have evidence in this case that it should.

The poster immediately before this one has observed that the opponent who stands accused of unsporting behavior is eccentric and acts like a kid. Suppose that he is a kid. Should anyone here treat him any differently on that account?

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:30 pm

I'm no expert on USCF or FIDE rules, but I'm pretty certain they would consider the deal itself unsportsmanlike (just as I do). The sportsmanlike thing to do would have been to resign the game he was loosing in, and play the winning game out. The scores for the two players would have been exactly the same.

Granted this isn't a serious violation of the rules, but still behaviour to be discouraged.

cornstalk
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The status quo is satisfactory.

Post by cornstalk » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:48 am

We can talk forever about sportsmanship, but I would not want to play on a site where the admin took it upon himself to assign penalties based on his personal notions of that vague concept. Let's have a clear set of rules and stick by them.

I think it is entirely satisfactory that a draw offer can ONLY be communicated with the move. That is the proper way to offer a draw, in any case. I am not sure about cc -- there are many sets of rules -- but I know that in formal over-the-board chess, a draw offer other than immediately with a move is considered improper.

Here, a separate message "offering" a draw then the opponent is on move can only mean, "I would be receptive to your draw offer, but I do not guarantee that I will accept it once I see your move."

cornstalk
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A story.

Post by cornstalk » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:12 am

(In my last post, I meant "a draw offer WHEN the opponent is on move," not "THEN").

I have a story that is relevant to this thread. White played 1. e4, and Black, the much weaker player, immediately resigned. Black signed his scoresheet, circled "Black won," and handed the scoresheet to his opponent. White, not bothering to check circled result, signed the sheet and returned it to Black, who then submitted it to the tournament staff. White submitted no scoresheet of his own.

When Black's win was posted, White complained, but Black steadfastly maintained that his opponent had resigned. Black's win stood -- the TD believed White, but White's signature was on the scoresheet right under the circled "Black won."

Fair? By no means. Correct? I think so.

neric
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Post by neric » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:09 pm

Lovley! That's actually something I am waiting for to happen to myself. I'd so punch that guy's face in, his own mom wouldn't recognize him anymore. Some people might think cheating in chess is funny, but they'll change their mind as soon as they run into an opponent with no sense of humor whatsoever :wink:

echamberlain
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Sportsmanship

Post by echamberlain » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:44 pm

I think the TD made the wrong decision in Cornstalk's tale. How did White, or anyone except Black, know that "Black Won" was circled before White signed? Relying on a document not attested by anyone except the involved parties was just plain nutty on the part of either the TD or the Rules Committee of the sponsoring organization.

I disagree with that rule, but I cannot disagree with a TD following the rules established by an organizaton of which he is only a part. The difference here is that we have no organization to tell us what the rules are. It's up to Greg to do what he thinks best, with or without consulting us.

One good thing about playing chess on a website is that the facts of a case can usually be established beyond doubt.

I would still like to know whether the rues page we all see when we join is available for later reference.
Last edited by echamberlain on Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

davidswhite
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Post by davidswhite » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:07 pm

I can't agree that in Cornstalk's story there could be any question
about Black circling "Black Won" only after White had signed.
The purpose of signing the scoresheet is to attest to the result.
Absent a result being in evidence on the scoresheet there would be
nothing to attest to and no cause for signature.
I suspect that White signed the scoresheet without bothering to
check it because it simply didn't occur to him that after Black's instant
acceptance of defeat,anything but a rubber stamp was called for.
Black's behavior in this case was so unimaginably reprehensible
that no reasonable person would have anticipated it nor have thought
that checking the scoresheet before signing would be necessary to
preclude it.
In the event,the TD had no choice in the ruling.

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:08 pm

The tournament rules are at http://www.net-chess.com/tournament2004/rules.html.

I generally consider USCF rules to apply where they can be applied. Whenever confronted with a rule question I generally consider what would happen if it occured in a serious OTB game. In this case no TD in his/her right mind would force a draw in the second game nor overturn the result in the completed game. In big prize tournaments, if the TD (or sponsor) found out about the deal I'm sure both contestents would be thrown out had they both followed through with it.

ramesis
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Post by ramesis » Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:36 am

Dear All,

I have seen the post by awacs :cry: and I have been monitoring this guy kasimzhanov :evil: since i first played several games with him. He seems to relish riling his opponents specifically if he is up one pawn or one piece urging the guy to resign. he is of the opinion that since he is ahead in material he already won the game. What a big falacy, i have seen games won with just one pawn and a king for the winner whereas the opponent still has a Queen and several pieces on the board.

This guy is really unbelievable and still keep suggesting you resign even if his position might be inferior. So beware of this guy. I suggest to gmiller to scan his games and see his comments to his opponents.

PS. This guy only wants to play with higher rated players if you are 200 or 400 below his rating he will ask you to get to his level first before he will accept your challenge.

Yours, truly,
Ramesis :D

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