We need an arbiter!

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neric
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We need an arbiter!

Post by neric » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:21 am

I am rather tired of having to watch my opponent drag on theoretical draws forever and forcing the 50 move rule to decide in the end. This is simply lacking sportsmanship.

No problem on chess with normal timecontrols since it is a matter of hourse, but a huge problem in corresponcence chess when guys have saved up to 190 days to make their moves.

Example:
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 7562&r=456

I know that nothing can be done against it, but it is also rather terrible to see people prefer to lose on time in a position with a forced mate. What sort of kindergarten is this?

Examples:
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 0765&r=456
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 2463&r=456

muabdib
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Kindergarten

Post by muabdib » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:35 pm

I fully understand and accept your anger:-)And yes of course your 1st example is a clear draw and the two others a clear and forced win.One of your opponents has a higher rating than yours. He doesn't accept neither the draw nor the loss. The other opponent has a very low rating, but the win is forced in that game and you told him the moves leading to a forced mate. But there is no way to make your opponents accept the forced result. So just lean back and cool down:-)

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:55 pm

I adjusted the time in the drawn game to encourage him to accept.

The other two games your opponents appear to be moving regularly and there's nothing wrong with them forcing you to play it out.

For games where you have a mate in xx and your oppoent hasn't moved in a couple of weeks with 60 days still remaining, I'll adjust the clock on those to speed them along.

chessonly
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Post by chessonly » Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:01 pm

JUST A SUGGESTION-
how about having a losers list kind of a thing ,which lists all these types of player-players with many timeouts or who accumulate time to make their move.

neric
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Post by neric » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:47 pm

Thanks gmiller. There is a problem though, along with the adjustments the rating of one opponent went from 2600 to 2140 or so which is hardly in line with his previous success.

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:10 pm

Looks like he just resigned five other games. He must have been doing the same thing in those.

pe
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Post by pe » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:45 am

chessonly wrote:JUST A SUGGESTION-
how about having a losers list kind of a thing ,which lists all these types of player-players with many timeouts or who accumulate time to make their move.
while we're at it : why not have a list of people who do nothing but complain about how things should change around here, from the moment they joined this site ?

it's not because you have a fast car that everybody should make way; it's not because you're a strong chessplayer that a chesssite should be adapted to your every wish.

pe
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Post by pe » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:18 am

chessonly wrote:JUST A SUGGESTION-
how about having a losers list kind of a thing ,which lists all these types of player-players with many timeouts or who accumulate time to make their move.
while we're at it : why not have a list of people who do nothing but complain about how things should change around here, from the moment they joined this site ?

it's not because you have a fast car that everybody should make way; it's not because you're a strong chessplayer that a chesssite should be adapted to your every wish.

chessonly
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Post by chessonly » Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:21 am

peee wrote:
it's not because you're a strong chessplayer that a chesssite should be adapted to your every wish.


Thanks a hell for that pe.i thought iwas a hopeless player.:lol:

Secondly i think u should learn the meaning of a suggestion. i wasnt complaining nothing and neither do i want anything to be changed (i love the way the site is). i was merely giving my suggestion which the site admins or anybody can perfectly chooose to ignore as they wish.
but obviously i mortally offended a high ranked ,godly ,old timer and 'experienced' player as u and i am terribly sorry for that.
Now dont go on to reply as i hav no desire to read your posts .instead y dont v settle this argument the old way,, On a chess board :wink:

pe
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Post by pe » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:05 am

chessonly,

my earlier posting was a 'quickie', while the boss wasn't looking :wink: and this is the result : i have offended people i didn't mean to. i quoted you, but i did not mean to criticise you. i admit it was not clear. so, chessonly : my appologies to you. and i certainly don't feel superior to you, neither as a person or as a chessplayer.

if you all will bear with me, i would like to try to explain what was the point i was trying to make :

as i see it this site is still the best chess-site around. the rules and settings are the result off all the years and all the games played here. sometimes you end up in an annoying situation, but most of the time i enjoy my stay here. probably things can be improved here or there, but in general the rules make sense, and : they are the same for everybody.

what i wanted to act against was, are people like Neric, who join the site, and start complaining about players playing too fast (and make irritating mistakes), or playing too slow, or not resigning when he wants them to. if you are so frustrated by the people on this site, i would suggest to leave, but stop complaining.

I also think it's dangerous to intervene as Greg has done now : are you going to do that for everybody who feels irritated, Greg ? if you want to spent all your time to that, then it's your choice. But, although you'll probably be doing justice in most cases : in some cases there are valid excuses for behaviour of players : even our beloved jjones has had some timeouts recently because of hurricaneproblems.

so i would suggest to leave things as they are, let clocks running ; everybody knows the rules before he/she enters a game, so nobody should complain. if you start a 30d+5d game, you know your opponent will be able to accumulate a lot of spare time. and he/she can use that as he/she wishes. if one can't live with that, that's their problem.

after all : it's only chess. so let's enjoy it.

neric
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Post by neric » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:37 am

pe wrote:what i wanted to act against was, are people like Neric, who join the site, and start complaining about players playing too fast (and make irritating mistakes), or playing too slow, or not resigning when he wants them to. if you are so frustrated by the people on this site, i would suggest to leave, but stop complaining.
I was not complaining about people playing too fast or too slow. I was complaining about un-sportsman-like behavior.

There is an unwritten codex in chess about how you should act during a game. You don't offer more than one draw in a row. In one of my games here my opponent offered a draw on EVERY single move (being 600 rating points weaker). You resign games when you are heavy material down without any compensation. In one of my games here, actually in many, I am queen+pieces up and my opponents are playing on. You also agree to a draw in theoretically drawn positons (especially with 5 or less pieces since those are available on CD) without stretching it over 50 moves. Not doing so shows simply lack of respect for your opponent and nothing else.

Our friend Kasimdzhanov here hit on another funny idea and offered a tourney with a starting position which is in fact a stalemate. What is this?

Of course you could say I was complaining about the people playing here, but how about these people stop acting like morons and behave like a chessplayer is supposed to behave.

Now it is your decision which sort of people you want to see playing here. Rather strong players with good manners or annoying patzers who keep dragging every game to mate?

pe
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Post by pe » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:47 am

Of course you could say I was complaining about the people playing here, but how about these people stop acting like morons and behave like a chessplayer is supposed to behave
Neric,

the problem is that you have an opinion as how chessplayers should behave, but others might have other opinions. there might be a good reason for people not making any moves for a long time. some people might want to see how you finish the game ; not everybody has knowledge of databases with endgames (i don't). i have continued (end)games a pawn down, just to learn how to play this down.

there's lots of different people, and there's lots of different chessplayers, with different etiquette. they all play according the WRITTEN rules however.

do you really want Greg to kick all players who don't play according to your 'rules' of the site, so you can have a more pleasant stay here ?

my suggestion is that you just finish these games with 'annoying' players, and avoid them in the future ; if you're 600 points higher, that should not be a problem. and stop being frustrated by them : it 'll just get you stomachproblems. there are players who do strange things (like the stalemate'trap' ; i noticed he only allowed higher rated players) ; but you soon get to know them, and there are a lot of other players around.

if you insist on having a chesssite with only 'good mannered' players, i suggest you start your own site.

as for who i prefer to play against, and who not ; you know which games i resigned prematurely...

muabdib
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Amici Sumus

Post by muabdib » Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:14 am

Amici Sumus is not a cover all excuse for failing to follow the rules nor should it outweigh the rules, rather it is a philosophy. One way to view it is to ask how you would handle a situation if it occurred in an important tournament game against your best friend. You would play hard but within both the letter and the spirit of the rules, neither asking for nor giving quarter. However, if there were a disagreement, you would assume that he is telling the truth, not automatically assume that he is lying and cheating. It is the Tournament Director's job to make sure that wherever possible games are decided by the skill of the players and not by his rulings, without of course directly contradicting the rules.

(ICCF Playing Guideline Rules)

They may perhaps not answer all your questions but just be a reminder of the spirit. There ain't no rules making you resign when your game is lost or accepting a draw when it's really a draw. It's annoying when your opponent hasn't got the spirit - he still is acting within the rules. It happens and happened to all of us - and perhaps. who knows. we are all acting sometimes in the same way?

neric
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Post by neric » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:11 am

That is all granted. Of course it is up to the player when to resign or when to play on and try to come up with some unique defensive idea. Sometimes people just want to see proper technique by their opponent before they resign. All ok!

When I am doing kids training then sometimes I have to watch one with a naked king trying to defend against an opponent who has 3 queens, 2 rooks and 4 minor pieces. If the defender escapes with a stalemate in the end, I have problems to explain to those kids, that it doesn't make sense to play on in such a position. There is no problem in playing on if you know that your opponent is very likely to blunder away all of his advantage, but you should also be able to judge when your opponent is strong enough to convert it to a win. I call that respect for the opponent.

While this may all be within the margin of philiosophy there is another cathegory of player and that is the one who is trying to be just plain annoying. These guys know that they are losing and they want to punish their opponent for it by dragging the game along for no purpose. These guys are the ones who are bugging me most.

Last but not least it all depends on your personal history. I am playing tournament chess on an international level for 25 years now and I am not used to people acting like they have just escaped the kindergarten. Maybe there are more casual players around with less experience, but then it might be time to learn how to behave properly at the chess board.

neric
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Post by neric » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:31 pm

Two more specialists:

http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 2507&r=380
http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 2501&r=471

The first guy has me waiting for 100 days already and the other is playing on being a queen and a rook down in a mate in 5 position. Unbelievable!

gmiller
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Post by gmiller » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:27 pm

Both of your opponents are moving regularly, so I don't see a need for action.

cornstalk
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Re: We need an arbiter!

Post by cornstalk » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:17 pm

neric wrote:I am rather tired of having to watch my opponent drag on theoretical draws forever and forcing the 50 move rule to decide in the end. This is simply lacking sportsmanship.
So what? The object of this game is TO WIN, not only to win when your opponent is sporting.

Just beat them and go on to the next game.

If you don't like a drawn-out game, don't agree to a long time control.

hamot
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Post by hamot » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:35 pm

neric wrote:Two more specialists:

http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 2507&r=380
[snip]
The first guy has me waiting for 100 days already [snip]. Unbelievable!
Neric -

You poor fella. Having to wait 100 days? Dang! Must be hard. Good thing you have 21 games going right now. Hopefully the other 19 will keep you busy. Looks like the 2 you are playing against maf are going to time out, too.

Check out this link:

http://www.net-chess.com/command.cgi?co ... rch&p1=maf

Notice something? Maf hasn't made a move in ANY of his games in 3 months. He hasn't even signed in for 3 months. Ya think maybe there is something going on in his life that is preventing him from playing right now? He last logged in on Sept. 18th. He has 446 timeouts, but has played almost 6000 games on this site!

Think about what you said....
The first guy has me waiting for 100 days already
He has a lot of people waiting, Neric. I would guess that he has something going on in his life that is preventing him from playing here right now. His history suggests that he is not making "you" wait. He has made alot of people wait.

I suggest you follow the advice of others who have posted here. Cool down, take a step back, and don't agree to long time controls. This site is just for fun. Chess is just a game. There are no stakes here, no titles, no prizes.

Humiliating others who are not breaking any rules is also poor ettiquete.

Tim

neric
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Post by neric » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:02 am

Not a problem. I wasn't aware that the guy isn't playing anymore.

I have changed my mind about the other game. Instead of finishing the mate in 5 I will just promote my other pawns and show him up. Maybe he is hoping for stalemate. That would be the ultimate joke.

echamberlain
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Alternatives

Post by echamberlain » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:07 pm

We all have options about where and with whom to play.

I play both here and on Chessworld.net. That site has time controls where a player has a given number of days for each move. On these controls, time unused on one move does not carry forward to the next, and one does not start with a pool of days to which more time is added with each move. They even have a time control of one day per move. Since people do sometimes have periods when they are unable to move, each player has a given number of "Holiday" days during the year. When you have registered for a holiday, time when it is your move does not pass. Furthermore, the site does have an arbiter who will, upon request, declare a game drawn if it is sufficiently drawn that one could get it declared so in an OTB tournament. I do not know whether they will declare a game won. On Its Your Turn, where I used to play, draws by repetion were caught by the software, usually three or four days after the third repetion. The bad news was that the players did not have a choice. Such games were draws even if neither player wanted the draw.

The thing I like best about all three sites is that almost everyone is polite and friendly. Given the trash on the internet, that amazes me.

neric
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Post by neric » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:46 am

http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p ... 2508&r=455

This game timed out (-2 days), but is still active on my list?!?!

hamot
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Post by hamot » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:12 am

Check again. The game now says that it timed out. It will be removed from your list shortly. It may even be gone by the time you read this.

Tim

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