If you could choose

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katchum
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If you could choose

Post by katchum » Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:37 pm

If you could choose between something you like to do, but has poor future and something you hate to do, but earns a lot of money, what would you choose?

If you chose the thing you hated to do, would you start over all again to learn the thing you like?

keithstuart
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Post by keithstuart » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:03 pm

Hmm tough one

It would depend on whether the high earning awful thing was relavily short term as i could live with it for a while whilst taking the money

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Post by katchum » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:20 pm

It's a job you have to do for the rest of your life, you would have more luxuries but you could only afford it if you keep working.

And I think once you do it you can never change back to the other job because you would have to learn the job from the start.

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Post by keithstuart » Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:30 pm

Still tricky

would depend if i could afford to live on the lower paid job really

tellymetwise
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Post by tellymetwise » Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:37 pm

With the growing unemployment rate, competition is though for well paid jobs.

If you can't handle the stress this induces, any less paid job (and which you are overqualified for) will still have exactly the same competition.

If it's not the stress, who cares if competition focused people think you're acting out of place.

It's called evolution, one becomes carnivore, the other herbivore and
only some will be omnivore.

Just create a life outside of your Job and enjoy from what really matters.

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Post by katchum » Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:36 pm

Conclusion?

It doesn't really matter if you like your job or not, the better will it be if you liked it, but if you don't like it, just create another environment where you can be yourself and enjoy life.

I'm in a situation where I have to make the crucial turn whether to go on with my studies as civil engineer (3 years) or make the turn of playing the piano (5 years).

I know there are enough jobs for civil engineering and I know it could be hard as a pianist, but in the beginning I chose to do engineering so I have to take the courage to end it.

I can't play with life, I have to take it seriously.

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Post by wulebgr » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:20 am

You are correct--life is not a play, or warm-up for something better. If your only rewards are riches, you have already lost.

Find work that sustains you--the spirit as well as the flesh.

I, too, could have selected engineering. History and Literature has never paid as well, but my children get enough to eat. Lately, small bits of income have come in from teaching chess.

Life is good because I am welthy in the things that matter: time for fishing and chess; family; poetry.

katchum
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Post by katchum » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:16 am

I only wouldn't know if I could live with poverty. I don't need much but I don't know if a job as a pianist could sustain a family.
I'm also too young to know the real world already.

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Post by tellymetwise » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:45 am

Try writing a song and piano play of your own.
Make a choice based on that.

Though an engineer being nicknamed "the piano player" is something worth thinking about.

(I've had a job where playing an instrument or singing was mandatory, though only for the Friday nights.) :wink:

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Post by katchum » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:35 am

I guess that is the solution, but then a dream of being a concert pianist wouldn't come true.

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Post by hamot » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:07 pm

Katchum -

Being a music teacher myself (I teach band to 5th-12th graders in a small Minnesota town), I have some life experience in this dilemma of yours. I am not saying that I am an expert or anything. I just have some common ground in the musical world with you. And perhaps the job world.....

I know that this is long, but I wanted to give you some background to what I am going to say later. Please bear with me.

I made the decision in the 8th grade to be a band teacher. Every class I took was for that purpose. I learned everything I could about music, and at one time, even tried to double major in both band and choir. I had to settle for band only when I realized that I would never have the piano skill necessary to be a choir teacher.

I did this to the neglect of learning some very valuable life skills. For instance, I never took a shop class, so I never learned any handyman skills. Now, as a husband and father of 5, I am sorely lacking in some very basic skills that men, in our society, are generally expected to know/do. I never took a second language until I was in college. At the pace that we went in college German, I drowned quickly in the hurricane pace that we went at. I would have benefitted from the slower pace that one learns in high school.

I never took a physics class in school. Now, I teach a subject that is chock full of physics concepts. I took a typing class only because my father INSISTED that I take one. Now I am grateful, but at the time, I was short-sighted.

I graduated college in 4 years and went right into teaching - at age 22. My entire goal in college was....to get out!

After my first year in teaching, the school board did not renew my contract. My lack of life (people) skills hurt my teaching the most. I realized that teaching band is only 10% about the classroom material. The rest had to do with dealing with people. No one ever taught me this until it was too late. Then my STUDENTS taught me the need for this valuable skill.

I spent the next year substitute teaching, because I did not have the skill to do anything else! After that second year, I had 13 job interviews for teaching positions, but NO JOB OFFERS! I finally had to move 2 states and 600 miles away in order to get a teaching job. The only reason I got that job is because it was in a school that needed a person to teach 7th grade math and science, and they "happened" to need a band teacher. So they hired my wife to do the 7th grade, and they hired me because we were a packaged deal!

I hated that job, and my wife only lasted 8 weeks before she gave birth to our first child and resigned. Now they STILL didn't have the 7th grade teacher and they were STUCK with ME! HA!

2 years later, we left there (the board was chasing me out again - I still hadn't learned those people skills) and moved back home. Finally, I was in a teaching job that I liked. Part of the reason that I was successful was that I was teaching at 7 little parochial schools and was only at each school one day per week. People didn't have time to learn to dislike me.

The pay was very poor, but it was all I had, and I LOVED the job. This was the first time in 4 years that I did not dread coming to work. I was respected by everyone, and was very successful. But because of the money, I kept looking.

After 4 years at this job, I found a public high school band job...my "Dream" job. I got an instant $13,000 per year raise just for moving from parochial to public school! This time, I had to move because the parochial schools were phasing out my position, and I only had 1 year left before I was out of a job. I moved to Tomah, WI (this is where my handle at this site comes from - "hamot" is "Tomah" spelled backwards.). I stayed there for 3 years and gradually grew to hate teaching again - but the money was good! What a paradox!

Anyway, I "had" to leave Tomah, too, because of those people skills. At this point, I didn't even apply for teaching jobs any more. I had been in 5 different jobs in 11 years (counting the subbing) and was only really successful at one of them. Having 5 jobs in 11 years in the teaching profession is not looked upon very well by employers. Besides, I was really burned out. I never thought that I would teach again! I was unemployed for 6 weeks and finally got a job selling cell phones in a kiosk at a Wal-Mart. My pay was 1/2 of what I made as a teacher, but I did enjoy it and was somewhat successful at it.

After 15 months, I took an opportunity to become a travelling salesman. Now I was making a ton of cash (I was on pace to gross over $60,000 - $65,000/year, which is a lot for a former teacher), but I was on the road all the time with no health insurance and 5 kids. We managed, but the health insurance was the thing that made me look again at teaching. At this point I had been out of teaching for 2 years and, like I said, I thought that I would NEVER teach again.

It was in this job that I really learned some valuable people skills. I had to, because I was paid by commission only. I learned how to study people's body language, how to listen, when to talk, when NOT to talk, and how to react to "hecklers". I learned alot because I HAD to, or else we would not be able to pay the bills. When a heckler gave me a hard time, I saw them as taking food off of my kids' plates! And I was NOT going to lose sales because some bozo decided he wanted to do a comedy routine at my expense!

Here was a job that I was enjoying, doing well at (I was top salesman in the company 2 of my first 6 months) and making a good income! Great, right?

Wrong! I was gone from my family WAY too much. It hurt my marriage, too. And my children started to get used to me being gone all the time. That hurt the most! And then there was that nagging issue of the health insurance.

So I started applying for teaching jobs again. I must have sent out 30 applications without any responses. Finally, last July, I received 1 (one!) job interview. The pay cut would be huge ($25,000 - $30,000 per year pay cut), but I would be back in a job with health insurance, a retirement package, and I wouldn't have to travel any more. My family would have to move (to Minnesota - ugh - Viking territory), but at least we could be together.

I decided to use what I have learned about people skills, body language and selling myself during the interview. I got the job.

Not only did I get the job, but I have used what I learned during my last sales job in the classroom with great success! I LOVE TEACHING!

Katchum, your message really touched me because, although we have never met and I can't "really" know what you are going through, I sensed the pain that you must be feeling right now. You sound like you are agonizing over a difficult choice. And yes, there is no one-size-fits-all quick fix. This is going to be a process for you.

This decision that you have to make (or have already made) will not be an isolated event, but the springboard of a process that will probably last many years.

You HAVE to provide for your family. There is no question about that. You will have many years to hone your skills on the piano. But please, don't let money be the only factor in the decision.

Yes, you may have to put piano on hold to fulfill your responsibilties. Just don't stop dreaming and working towards your goals. I know that that sounds contradictory, but if you read my story, you will know that it doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be both, just maybe not right now.

One thing that I say to my students on a regular basis is that people are more important than things. Your family HAS to be your priority. You will regret it later if you don't put them first. Trust me...I know.

I hope this makes sense and that it helps.

Tim

katchum
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Post by katchum » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:49 pm

I have done many research and heard many stories, it really makes you think about life, and reality, I heard from many people they had all sorts of depressions: one of them even took an overdose of sleeping tablets, another one's mother hung herself up (I won't get into details).
Your story isn't one of those "happy" stories either.

I guess it's just searching for the best in life. But I wouldn't want to waist 2 years of money my parents gave me, just to do something I'm not really sure about. Maybe I would even start liking it?

If I may ask you: are you searching for happiness or is it something else?
I even think you got the answer to: "what's the purpous of living?"

I have thought about my life from the womb of my mother till now.
Gradually life became more and more frustrating. Elementary school was fun, but every step further (high school) would get harder and harder. Then I adapted the environment of university. I must go on now, no matter how hard it gets.

Well, if you would give me a "medicin to be happy" I wouldn't take it. Because it wouldn't be reality.

Basically I could jump in heaven or in hell, but I don't know which one is heaven...

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Post by gmiller » Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:27 pm

In general, it's kinda hard to make a lot of money at a job you hate. If you like your job, you put more effort into it, if you hate your job, you avoid putting effort into it and your employer will notice either way. And I wouldn't hesitate to say that the bottom rung of civil engineering is probably lower paying than a good music teacher.

And to add to what Hamot said. People skills are the most important thing in almost any job (unless your job is testing isolation chambers), any other skills you have are normally secondary. If you want proof, go check out the movie (or book) "Catch me if you can", and realize that he was able to take the possitions of so many jobs soley based on the fact that he was very very good at talking to people, his edicational creditials were obviously not even worth the paper they were printed on.

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Post by hamot » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:59 pm

katchum wrote:I have done many research and heard many stories, it really makes you think about life, and reality, I heard from many people they had all sorts of depressions: one of them even took an overdose of sleeping tablets, another one's mother hung herself up (I won't get into details).
Your story isn't one of those "happy" stories either.

I guess it's just searching for the best in life. But I wouldn't want to waist 2 years of money my parents gave me, just to do something I'm not really sure about. Maybe I would even start liking it?

If I may ask you: are you searching for happiness or is it something else?
I even think you got the answer to: "what's the purpous of living?"

I have thought about my life from the womb of my mother till now.
Gradually life became more and more frustrating. Elementary school was fun, but every step further (high school) would get harder and harder. Then I adapted the environment of university. I must go on now, no matter how hard it gets.

Well, if you would give me a "medicin to be happy" I wouldn't take it. Because it wouldn't be reality.

Basically I could jump in heaven or in hell, but I don't know which one is heaven...
Katchum -

Since you asked....

No, I am not searching for happiness. Being on the road as much as I have been with my sales job, I know that emotions are a fleeting thing - they come and go. I have a small understanding of why people, especially celeberties, turn to things like drugs, suicide, sex, etc. They have plenty of "fun" available to them and lots of people to hang out with. What they are looking for is not fun, but fulfillment. They are lonely, even though they are surrounded by others. "Friends."

They can earn millions of dollars, yet find it to be meaningless. They want fulfillment, purpose, a need to belong, and a chance to help others. As you said, they want to know the meaning of life.

I have a purpose in life. I have never said this before on this forum, and those who know me on this site know that I am just as normal as everyone else on this site. I want to live my life in such a way that people will want to know more about my purpose in life. And that purpose is this - to share the love of Jesus Christ with others. Jesus offers love and forgiveness to all of us. I have personally accepted his love and forgiveness and am going to spend eternity with Him. Everything about my purpose in life stems from this.

I will not preach, as you do not need a sermon. But if you want to talk more, I would be glad to. Just email me your phone number and I will call you on my nickel. Or we can talk here, too. Or via email. Your choice. If you don't respond, I will understand that, too.

Tim

katchum
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Post by katchum » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:36 am

I think Gmiller has come to the point: I don't feel like I put effort in my study. I once searched for a job, they asked if the job interested me, I said not really, and he just said goodbye and the conversation was over.

If devotion is a necessity I wouldn't go on with my studies.

But coming up next will be a long discussion with my private piano teacher and my parents, I'll see how it gets.

I want my whole family to stand behind me if I choose to go for piano playing, I need their help. They certainly aren't very comfortable with my new decision.

The problem is that I'm not really learning the real thing yet, these two years are only theoretical knowledge, the following 3 years are the practical years. Maybe I could change. But I don't see that happening soon.

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Post by wulebgr » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:46 pm

While you go through the process of these important discussions, you might want to look at the essay, "Remembrances of Things Played: Presence and Memory in the Pianist's Art" by Edward Said. It can be found in his collection Reflections on Exile, and Other Essays. I am not a musician (to my regret). Nevertheless, Said's essay ranks along with James Baldwin's short story "Sonny's Blues" near the top of the list of texts that offer insight into music, music culture, and the importance of the culture of music to Culture.

Solomon is reported to have said, "Where there is no vision, a people perish." I have long believed his proverb applies to individuals as well as societies. If playing the piano is your vision and your talent, then you should be obligated to follow that pursuit. Still, civil engineering may be a means to that end.

I had a roommate in college who was in hot pursuit of his vision and dream--civil engineering. Our friendship soured because he understood his own dream in such a way--financial benefits--that he found mine incomprehensible. I can appreciate the Blues in my car because civil engineers have designed smooth roads. The practical necessity of the arts and artists--poets and pianists--requires imagination and cultivation for recognition, but it is no less real.

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Post by katchum » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:13 pm

For now I've decided to continue with chemical engineering techniques and maybe a 5 years study of the piano to go with it. This way I always have something to fall back on, and a chance to find a musical career (carreer?).

This decision could be altered due to my grades or the conversation with my teacher that is about to start in one week.

I thank you all and I'm grateful that you just, ..., cared. :cry:

katchum
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Post by katchum » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:32 pm

I made a mistake, I'm thinking of doing piano.

hamot
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Post by hamot » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:22 pm

What changed your mind?

Tim

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Post by katchum » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:01 am

A simple class meeting.

Alan Weiss, my private teacher, invited me to join him at the institute.
I felt enlightment, I stepped into a different world, a world of ordinary people in contrast to the so called 'robots' where I'm staying now.

Alan Weiss once loved playing the guitar, but seeing the New York gangs and their behaviour, like smoking a cigarette with a plastic stick beneath it, he didn't want to be part of it anymore.
Like him I just don't like my environment now.

I think of life as having a goal to achieve, but right now my studies don't have any emotional reason whatsoever, I'm like a plant, a non-human being, you could call me a zombie.

It's not that I wouldn't enjoy the 5 years piano studies, but I fear what comes after it. Shall I be a 'great' pianist or just a pianist?

The main reason is that I can't bear doing things without a certain 'motivation'. If I were a civil engineer I already know my mind would be empty, I wouldn't search for the newest technologies, I wouldn't go farther to develop my knowledge. That is already enough for me to decide to do the totally different option.

It could be a temporal thought though, not lasting even a week of a lifetime, but I assure you that when the day comes, the day before the decision, I will think about what I said here.

Please don't delete this topic...

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Post by katchum » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:30 am

I see civil engineering as a continuation of high school, you all agree that there are courses at high school you didn't like, but you were obligated to follow them?
The other 'school' was music school, I considered it as sole relaxation time in the weekends, it was fun, always.

The thing I don't get is: a normal being who never studied music, would have to continue with university(supposed he's an intellectual). This is an obligation, in the end you have to do something with your life.
I couldn't believe I really could be a pianist, because I thought about it as a hobby, nothing more.

So my conclusion would be that everyone has to suffer just by working. Plus everyone has to work, but playing the piano isn't suffering in my opinion, so I'm not working. This leads to the fact I'm not doing my work as a human being.

Nonsense?

Maybe I should just shut up, I go more crazy every minute.

I'm bored with life, too much thinking...

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Post by katchum » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:11 am

Did all of you really chose what they wanted to do, or was it more of a money thing, a buddy thing?
And did it turn out as you expected?

You are free to ignore me.

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Post by wulebgr » Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:34 pm

I chose what I wanted--teach, study, write history--and it grew into teach, study, write history and literature, with emphasis on topics I did not anticipate originally. The economy for such academic service work went sour during the Reagan years, grew worse during the reign of Bush I, ignored the alleged recovery during the Clinton fiasco, and only heightens my sense of personal anxiety during the present monomaniacal quest led by Captain George. Hence, the job security has never been what I expected. Wealth was not my goal, but I thought a steady income would result from steady work.

On the other hand, I have earned a couple $K teaching chess the past year, and I never planned that!

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