RANT: re:cheating

[arlocw]

I've analyzed a number of games and have determined that a number of my opponents are in fact using computer chess programs to make moves. I don't know that anything can be done about this. Those of you who do so know who you are. I don't get the point of doing so, for the inflated ratings are not real and seem to me an infantile attempt to boost ego.

I've been a member of the United States Chess Federation for years and enjoy playing people; though I do use computers to analyze games, it is just that if I wanted to play a computer I could easily do so.

But, hey if it makes some of you feel better about yourselves, more power to you.

-arlocw

[gmiller]

Actually, there's a service you can use to determine if your opponent is cheating. Try this. They can not only tell if they're using a computer, but also if they've asked advice from a friend.

[peterpawn]

Good one Geg!

[hamot]

Actually, there's a service you can use to determine if your opponent is cheating. Try this. They can not only tell if they're using a computer, but also if they've asked advice from a friend.

Hilarious! I burst out laughing!

[arlocw]

Make a joke out of it, hmm. How old are you Greg? 11? Grow up.

[katchum]

Thanks for the idea, I'll try cheating too.
Hmm, how about using my mustang chess computer?

[juselton]

When are we going to have another man vs machine match. We had one a couple of years ago cm8000 vs Bret. perhaps we should have another. How about a machine taking on three of our top players in consultation. We could listen to them as they plan their moves. One of those stream of conciousness things. Maybe one move per day to keep it rolling. Who do you think will come out on top?

Regards, Juselton

[ghorn]

arlocw why not post some of these games in "Puzzles and Game Commentary" (leaving out names of course) at the point you feel cheating happened and then allow others to comment on the games for a few days. Then you can present your analysis that proves a computer was used.

[energy]

Make a joke out of it, hmm. How old are you Greg? 11? Grow up.

You do know you're answering the creator/programmer of net-chess.com? The same guy you've donated $30 to?

Seems to me he's quite grown up... ( http://www.gregmiller.net/ )

[arlocw]

Yes I do know & I've decided to resign from all my games here, then never come back.

[gmiller]

You mean you weren't joking when you said you could tell people were using computers? You were serious?

[arlocw]

Yes.

[hamot]

You mean you weren't joking when you said you could tell people were using computers? You were serious?

I'm with Greg on this one. With a record of 21 wins, 120 losses and 6 draws, you can't be serious that you can "tell" when people were using computers!

[arlocw]

This will be my last post on this site.

My decision to leave the site was based on Greg's referral to a psychic hotline. I was simply stating a fact. My reaction was perhaps a bit immature itself. As to my retractors, I would recommend referring to my first 71 games and not my current w/l/d ratio as I have already stated I am resigning from all games, even if on move 1. Check your facts Hamot.

I will not post specific games as that will name specific persons and this was not my intent. It is interesting however to play an opponent who averages 2-3 moves ahead and suddenly plays a move or number of moves of depth 21.

I have been a member of USCF for years, a member of American Mensa for more than 20 years and a member of ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) for two decades. Graduated Summa Cum Laude, Ph.D.

Personally I don't care if people cheat. I just choose not to participate. Perhaps some of us will play in a USCF of FIDE sponsored tournament, if so I look forward to the challenge. I've been playing chess since age 7 and have been rated "expert" since age 14. I have nothing to prove here. I've played thousands of "real-life" games and thousands of games against computers, including: chessmater, Fritz, DeepJr., etc. So I DO know when I am playing against an opponent who is playing technically flawless moves.

Perhaps there are no cheaters here, my appologies. Though, I would recommend a number of you join professional play as many of you are rated much higher than even Gary Kasparov.

Good luck w/your site Greg and good luck to all you Grand Masters, lets see it at a live tournament

[cleenders]

[muabdib]

Actually, there's a service you can use to determine if your opponent is cheating. Try this. They can not only tell if they're using a computer, but also if they've asked advice from a friend.

Hi Greg,
your hint with the Psychic Friends was quite unfair. We need those genii like arclow telling us when a move was originally planned by a computer and executed by a human player. I was about to ask him – if he’s still there - : if a move is planned and suggested by a computer and then accepted and executet by the human player, or if the move is first planned by the human player and accepted by the computer and then executed by the human player, what then? Well, if I understood arclow correctly – I hope I did – before playing a move you first have to be sure that this move would never have been played by your computer. Otherwise it would be a kind of coincidental cheating, or accidental cheating or unsconscious cheating or……Now we’re back to our Psychic Friends.

Regards
Hans

[energy]

This will be my last post on this site.

My decision to leave the site was based on Greg's referral to a psychic hotline.

Maybe he should have pointed you to psychology instead. With your prickliness, the Internet is probably not the place for you...

I was simply stating a fact.

And you think this hasn't been discussed before?

My reaction was perhaps a bit immature itself.

So now you should probably leave your body, right?

I will not post specific games as that will name specific persons and this was not my intent. It is interesting however to play an opponent who averages 2-3 moves ahead and suddenly plays a move or number of moves of depth 21.

Spend a few IQ points on figuring out how flesh and blood players may vary in playing strength over time, and then a few more in finding out how to differentiate between that and someone getting help from a machine.

Then you should probably patent the method...

I have been a member of USCF for years, a member of American Mensa for more than 20 years and a member of ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) for two decades. Graduated Summa Cum Laude, Ph.D.

It has always fascinated me how many of those that have it all, also are those that seems to be unable to find peace and harmony in their life.

Personally I don't care if people cheat.

Riiight.

I just choose not to participate.

Goodby! And good luck with your search for that cheater free place...

Perhaps some of us will play in a USCF of FIDE sponsored tournament, if so I look forward to the challenge. I've been playing chess since age 7 and have been rated "expert" since age 14. I have nothing to prove here. I've played thousands of "real-life" games and thousands of games against computers, including: chessmater, Fritz, DeepJr., etc. So I DO know when I am playing against an opponent who is playing technically flawless moves.

Must be that high IQ again, I'm a FM and I can almost never tell.

Perhaps there are no cheaters here, my appologies. Though, I would recommend a number of you join professional play as many of you are rated much higher than even Gary Kasparov.

Ouch! Did you spend all those IQ points further up, or is this just another childish spell? It might help to know this has also been discussed before. A lot!

Good luck w/your site Greg and good luck to all you Grand Masters, lets see it at a live tournament

Most of us seems to handle both the occational cheater, and typical Internet banter. Personally (as you might notice in this answer) I dislike the Mensa idea and attitude. Fortunately, detecting stuck up chess players is easier than detecting cheaters, they just can't keep from showing their attitudes eventually.

I'd like to be wrong about you, but I'm not holding my breath...

[katchum]

This Greg Miller is one hell of a knowledge box, wish I could have the same interests so passionally absorbed in my soul. Although I'm studying civil engineer I don't feel like one.

And about the discussion: there is no need for this discussion.

[bobbybellona]

arlocw wrote:

It is interesting however to play an opponent who averages 2-3 moves ahead and suddenly plays a move or number of moves of depth 21.

You assume that every player always makes the best move they are capable of making. This is where you go wrong.

I myself spend 1 second on some moves and fifteen minutes or more on others. In positions that seems boring I often just make a developing move without thinking, and then discover that it was a loosing move. In interesting positions with lots of tactical possibilities I spend more time thinking. (and make the losing move )

And sometimes when I come home after a beer (or 10), I does the stupid thing and log on here.

I have lots of games going and have won against 2300+ players and lost against 1300- players.

But with that said, I do not say it is impossible to create a computerprogram that can say if a player is cheating. I know that online-pokersites use programs to analyze every hand played by a player, and they are good at telling if players cheat. But in chess, you can't say a player is cheating just because he sometimes makes a lousy move, and other times makes the same move as Fritz. My guess is that you would have to design a program specifically to discover this kind of cheating.

[hamot]

This will be my last post on this site.

My decision to leave the site was based on Greg's referral to a psychic hotline. I was simply stating a fact. My reaction was perhaps a bit immature itself. As to my retractors, I would recommend referring to my first 71 games and not my current w/l/d ratio as I have already stated I am resigning from all games, even if on move 1. Check your facts Hamot.

I will not post specific games as that will name specific persons and this was not my intent. It is interesting however to play an opponent who averages 2-3 moves ahead and suddenly plays a move or number of moves of depth 21.

I have been a member of USCF for years, a member of American Mensa for more than 20 years and a member of ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) for two decades. Graduated Summa Cum Laude, Ph.D.

Personally I don't care if people cheat. I just choose not to participate. Perhaps some of us will play in a USCF of FIDE sponsored tournament, if so I look forward to the challenge. I've been playing chess since age 7 and have been rated "expert" since age 14. I have nothing to prove here. I've played thousands of "real-life" games and thousands of games against computers, including: chessmater, Fritz, DeepJr., etc. So I DO know when I am playing against an opponent who is playing technically flawless moves.

Perhaps there are no cheaters here, my appologies. Though, I would recommend a number of you join professional play as many of you are rated much higher than even Gary Kasparov.

Good luck w/your site Greg and good luck to all you Grand Masters, lets see it at a live tournament

I did indeed check my facts! I studied several of your games...both wins and losses. I have a hard time believing your claims of being rated an "expert" based on your performance here. Even if all 21 of your wins and all 6 of your draws came during the first 71 games, that still leaves 44 losses mixed in there! That does NOT give you the credibility to PUBLICLY accuse others of cheating! Whether you name names or not, users of this site know full well how to research things like this.

Stating a fact requires proof, which you have not provided. When you accuse someone publicly, you need to back up your claims. Just stating an accusation without giving proof does not make it a fact. It borders on Slander.

Definition from Merriam-Webster OnLine for Slander:

1 : the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation
2 : a false and defamatory oral statement about a person

Whether you name names or not, because we have the ability to look this up at this site, you had better PROVE your claims, or just keep it to yourself. I would think that a person with a Ph.D. would know better.

Saying that you don't care if people cheat and yet making an issue of it also does not make any sense at all.

Finally, as of this writing, I counted 32 games that you still have active. Whether you do resign them or not is not my business, but keeping your word once you have given it helps build credibility.

[katchum]

I wonder why hamot is so turned up about this?

[bobbybellona]

Of course he is upset, arlocw is accusing people on this site of cheating.

I consider myself to be a polite chessplayer. But I have two games against arlocw, 1 loss and 1 win. And since he will not say who is cheating and who is not, he is accusing me also. That is why I write this.


He says he is rated "expert" since age 14: That is the worst LIE I have heard.

I have played chess in the chessclub where I live, and I am rated among the worst 1/3 of the players there. Here is the game I won against arlocw: http://www.net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1068037421
Where is my "expert" opponent? I can not find him.
(here is the game i lost: http://www.net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1068037419 )

Ph.D. and MENSA, OK, that doesn't mean you are a good chessplayer. Perhaps you do well on IQ tests and at university. Disappointed that your high IQ does not automatically make you a good chessplayer? You are NOT a good chessplayer. As me, you are below average.

Instead of accusing your opponents for cheating, sit down and read some chesstheory, study your games, study others games. DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF CHEATING, just beacuse you aren't any good at the game!

[tellymetwise]

Of course he is upset, arlocw is accusing people on this site of cheating.

I have played chess in the chessclub where I live, and I am rated among the worst 1/3 of the players there. Here is the game I won against arlocw: http://www.net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1068037421
Where is my "expert" opponent? I can not find him.

You've been drinking 1 beer on move 14 bobby?

[katchum]

Oh I see, rating = 1300... That explains a lot...

[katchum]

Gregg, I recall that you once said in the previous tournament that you would check if anyone was using a computer.

Now, I say that you are being inconsequent then...

[smailliwmot]

I'm new to net-chess. Is use of a computer engine allowed or not on net-chess? I am told that it is allowed on ICCF.

[gmiller]

Use of a computer is not allowed at any correspondence chess sites I know of. Some of the Blitz sites allow computers, but they have to be identified as such.

[katchum]

At chessbase online there is a section where you may use computers.