2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

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ecperreault
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2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:59 pm

Not to pick, for I really don't know the criteria for advancing except that if your name is written in GREEN, you advance to the Second Round, etc.
There are 34 names listed as having advanced.
However, only 33 are written in GREEN.
Might be a CPU error there.

jpost
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by jpost » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:59 am

You,re right, Eugene..I even know which red player is made green, but I won't tell.
But if he goes to 2nd round, I want to go too:)))). Not only because I'm red too, but I like to play him...

Greetings, Jan

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:06 pm

Munbehend?!
Nutz.
I was looking forward to a rematch with him this year! Actually that was my goal... to win vs him in this tournament.
Rather disappointing actually, it really was what I was looking forward to.

jpost
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by jpost » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:24 pm

Well, I lost so many games from him, that I was more eager to get a new free chess-lesson...:)

gmiller
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:20 pm

I allowed Munbehend to move on to round two for several reasons, but the main ones are that one of the players in his match didn't play anywhere near their full potential against the match winner, and he's been a finalist in the tournament for several years in a row and normally received a bye into round 2 anyway.
Greg Miller

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:02 am

Hey I wanted to go to round 2. You didn't ask me Greg!

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:00 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:47 pm

I didn't bother looking too closely at other matches because no on had asked. In the games you pointed out, the scores were the result of the players' own actions, Boeien would not have advanced regardless of the scores in those games.

The most important game in my decision was here:
http://www.net-chess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1105099637

A time-out in a mate-in-five position. Had Apollom been playing to his full potential, he would have asked for the extra 15 days to be added. And in lieu of that, had the game declared a draw based on the Insufficient Loosing Chances rule. In either case, Munbehend would have advanced.

Such cases don't really happen in top level play, probably the closest would be the 1962 candidates match. Had game g1105099637 been part of that event, I have no doubt FIDE would have taken action.

I doubt there's an exact example of any such action being taken at the professional chess level because professionals take their reputation much more seriously. But I know of exceptions being made in other sports. I, personally, was allowed to compete in the high school cross country state championship due to a paperwork issue . I fought a member of the US Tae Kwon Do team in a tournament, he kicked me in the nose drawing blood which should have been an immediate disqualification. They let him continue anyway, but I guess he felt sorry for me because he didn't hit as hard the next four times. So, such exceptions are probably pretty common, they just don't make national news.
Greg Miller

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:04 am

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

davidswhite
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by davidswhite » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:39 am

Eugene,

all of your points are well taken by me(so,what else is new?)
I believe that this particular issue would be permanently obviated if Greg built into the system the 15 day extension after the 50th move automatically instead of waiting for a specific request for same,as it now stands.
Had apollom requested the 15 day extension against sorim, the worst result he'd have obtained would have been 1.5 points instead of none. I think that you were under the impression that sorim was winning both games against apollom,which
was definitely not the case.

The most fascinating match,from my viewpoint,was between angelofthenight and ragagopal. In each game angel was facing a forced mate,she was dead in the water and couldn't advance unless she did no worse than split that match.Each game
was in its 80th plus move and her single chance was to put off the forced mate until her couple of days advantage in one of the games forced her opponent to time out.She refused to cave and succeeded in splitting the match and advancing.What a battler!!!

Back to Eugene...I still think your unique style and chess skills will always give you a puncher's chance.
To my old friend Jan(Post)...just issue munbehend a challenge and I've no doubt that he'll oblige you with or without a tournament format.

I hope I've offended no one(Brian always excepted :-)

My best to all,
David

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:41 am

I say take out Eugene, and put me in his place!!!!

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by angelofthenight » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:01 pm

I knew I was dead in both my games against ragagopal, but I did play for the win on Time-Out. If he would have asked for the 15 days extension I would have resigned not wanting to prolong my loss! He is a very strong player and I gave it my all !

I would enjoy playing him again in round 3 if I advance, of course! :)

Angel

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:11 pm

You not advance? Please. You will advance!

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Not to pile on good thoughts... but...
I think most here were wondering what happened and why.
I stand by Greg and his decisions even if I may not entirely agree with them entirely for there has to be a final ruling from somewhere.
I shall always stand as such because Greg allows everyone a fair amount of discussion/ranting/complaining is his forum as long as it doesn't ruffle too many feathers or become outwardly rude. Should the forum thread become too obnoxious, it is scrubbed and we are allowed to move on to ragging on islanderfan elsewhere.
By, God, I can't help but think how dull it would be here without the 'regulars' who take the 'picking on' with good humor... geez, it would be just another boring Chess Site :lol:
And none of this would be possible except for Greg's patience and understanding.
Thanks again, Greg.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by cmulligan » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:55 pm

Hey Eugene. Think you can stop kissing Greg's butt long enough for us to get back to important stuff...like ragging on islanderfan... :P :lol: :lol:

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:06 am

No problem...
Back to that weasely little brat :lol:
Did I tell you, he invited me to a special dinner out on the town, you know.
Said he would pick up the tab.
Just us two Chess Players talking chess and other unimportant things.
I arrived on time and islanderfan did the ordering for us.
Then the cheap guy stole my McD Fries!!!
Why, I have never been that insulted since... well, since that last time he invited me to accompany him to a ball game. Stupid Chuck E Cheese crap...

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:57 am

I couldn't order cause I never showed up

jpost
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by jpost » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:03 am

It is okay that Munbehend goes on, I won't make objections.
Though: why not give all the finalists a bye (coincidence: I too:), if there weren't that awful good jessamine, I would not have been eliminated..).
Eugene, you were concerned about Boeien, how beautifull to see that, but I think I know why you hoped he would go to the 2nd round:)
My very old friend David: I 'll challenge Munbehend, but not now: it will take to much of his time to reach the final in a legal way:)))

Wish you all (and especially Michael) all the best in the rest of the tournament. I'll miss you.....(and you me:))
Jan

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:31 pm

I had checked your match out to see if a bye was in order, but looks like you lost fairly. You were the only other finalist from last year playing that didn't make it.

From now on, I'll always be giving the finalists a bye in to round 2. I'll also get rid of the second time control and just start with 75d and see how that works out. I was mostly worried about slow players dragging out lost games and delaying the determination of match winners, but that doesn't seem like it's been an issue.
Greg Miller

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:49 am

I have taken a vote and survey and most of the players want me in round 2. So let's make that happen Greg!!!!! 8)

davidswhite
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by davidswhite » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:56 am

+Brian,
no poll was necessary...every single player in round two would have welcomed your advancement but only on one condition...that you be inserted into their group :-) :D
Bestest,
David

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:09 am

See I knew it!!! I am wanted!!!! When you are ready Dave to play again let me know.

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:25 pm

I agree.
Brian could have been used to even the number of participants in each group to 6.
There would have been no complaints for everyone would know that Brian would always give his best effort against everyone...
and he moves fast too!

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:05 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

sorim
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by sorim » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:21 am

Hi

I did not decided not to participate in Round 2 but simply had to go for a buisness travel to India for two weeks.
And when I come back the game was timeout (10 days timeout). :?
So I missed the start of the second round.

Sorim

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by sorim » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:22 pm

Hi Greg,

so if you think a timeout win is not as worth as any other win, you should look at our second game too !!!
Here the position was lost for me, too and if apollom had not such a bad time management, I had to resign this game very soon.
Conclusion I had minus two points and apollom had plus two points -> and appllom would be first, too (together with munbehend)
So when you allow to continue munbehend in the second round - it would be fair to allow it to apollom, too !!!

But now you privilege munbehend and violate appollom.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:08 pm

That's a different situation. Apollum lost due to his own actions, Munbehend lost due to Apollum's playing stronger against him than he did against you.
Greg Miller

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Just a bad can of worms to have opened.
Everyone (even munbehend) knows of that exact risk involved BEFORE this occurred.
May it never gets re-opened.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by sorim » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:50 am

And munbehend played slower against me as against appolom, so what is the difference?

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:39 am

Speed is of no consequence, as I pointed out above, appolom had two options to either win or draw against you and he chose to do neither. A truly competitive player would have done one or the other.
Greg Miller

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by sorim » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:08 am

Munbehend also had the chance to win his game against me, but he decided to offer me draws for both games, just for tactical reasons!
In my eyes Munbehend did not play his best chess!

http://www.slowchess.com/viewgame.cgi?p1=g1105099627

And I am still convinced Appolom played his best chess, he tried to mate me till the end.

This was a very strange decision to give the Draw Master a free ticket.

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:26 am

Greg if I may add a question and statement. If you allowed the player to move on cause his "pairings" didn't play to their potential, then I should be allowed to move on cause the group I had was insane in rankings! So my question is how come myself, or for that matter, someone else from my group wouldn't advance from this logic?

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:56 am

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

ramawolf
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ramawolf » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:50 am

Proposal to add to the tournament rules:

The TD may promote a non-qualificant to the second round, in order to fill up a group or from other reasons.

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:13 am

We all agree that Brian (islanderfan) could fill this role easily with absolutely no objections from the participants.
He is willing to do it, a nice person to chat with, and most importantly - he moves quickly and regularly.

gmiller
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:02 pm

islanderfan wrote:Greg if I may add a question and statement. If you allowed the player to move on cause his "pairings" didn't play to their potential, then I should be allowed to move on cause the group I had was insane in rankings! So my question is how come myself, or for that matter, someone else from my group wouldn't advance from this logic?
You lost all but two of your games because you played poorly. Why do you feel a need to waste my time with stupid questions?
ramawolf wrote:Proposal to add to the tournament rules:

The TD may promote a non-qualificant to the second round, in order to fill up a group or from other reasons.
There already is a rule stating the TD may make changes to help the tournament run smoother, so that rule is already there.
But to declare that because someone ran out of time in ALL THEIR REMAINING GAMES was just - in basic terms - CHEATING!
I never claimed it was cheating, just unfair.
Greg Miller

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:39 pm

Can this thread just be deleted.
'Out of sight, out of mind'

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:19 pm

gmiller wrote:I allowed Munbehend to move on to round two for several reasons, but the main ones are that one of the players in his match didn't play anywhere near their full potential against the match winner, and he's been a finalist in the tournament for several years in a row and normally received a bye into round 2 anyway.
You stated this Greg not me. And on top of that, it's not stupid. It's a logical idea since you gave a response. YOU came up with it. YOU are the TD. YOU are the one who came up with the idea to let a player go through cause " main one is that one of the players in his match didn't play well". YOU are the one who is on the hook for your choice.So for that moronic and cheating, favoritism logic, I gave you one back. But since you chose to call me "stupid", I guess since your from Indiana, I should just call you an uneducated redneck?

islanderfan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:20 pm

And on top of that, you still didn;t answer the 2nd part of my question. But I guess when your to busy "cheating" you fail to notice things.

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:52 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

cmulligan
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by cmulligan » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:47 pm

Damn folks. Regardless of the "right" or "wrong" involved,I really hate to see all this arguing & fussing. :( How about general apologies all around,from everyone, to everyone & let's get back to being friends sharing a game we all love?

iamachessstudent
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by iamachessstudent » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:29 pm

wow guys
this is a hella subject and has every one rather emotional...
I think, to be blunt: what's done is done; regardless the decision Greg has made it !
If we don't like it, we just wont play next year and if we agree, we play....maybe that works for some?!
I don't know but WOW very controversial...

I wont give my think on it, I agree that it has already caused harsh words and that, in itself is too high of a price to pay for a site that should be FUN and not so hostile!

Back to my games I go !
Good luck good chess ppl and WOW, just WOW


Joshua

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by energy » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:59 am

islanderfan wrote:So for that moronic and cheating, favoritism logic, I gave you one back. But since you chose to call me "stupid", I guess since your from Indiana, I should just call you an uneducated redneck?
Brian, just a friendly hint. You're way out of line on this one. He didn't call you "stupid", he called your question stupid. In my view, he was right. Maybe it's time for a little vacation? Or would a few games give you something else to think about? I'll play you a few, if you like.
Nils

--
Consider donating some computer time to science!
Read more here: http://folding.stanford.edu

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by islanderfan » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:21 pm

As always Nils I welcome the games. I see your point about the "stupid", but his logic in letting this player go through for that reason is also stupid.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:39 am

What I said:
gmiller wrote:...one of the players in his match didn't play anywhere near their full potential against the match winner...
What you claim I said:
islanderfan wrote:" main one is that one of the players in his match didn't play well"
Every one of your points in this thread involves twisting my words around. The fact that you have to twist my words around to make them sound controversial tells me you don't have an argument and are just trying to stir up trouble.
Greg Miller

ecperreault
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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:01 pm

Delete the thread.
I don't think it serves any further purpose...
...unless you wish to keep its content alive...
... or you just wish it to serve a personal one.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:59 am

There are certainly legitimate points open for discussion, and I encourage people who want to discuss them to do so. We just need people to stop making noise by emotionally ridiculing the decision I made rather than making valid discussion points.
Greg Miller

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by ecperreault » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:14 pm

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Last edited by ecperreault on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by davidswhite » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:11 am

For what it's worth I'd like to make a few observations.
1. When sorim was forced by circumstance( a 2 week business trip to India) to be unable to make a single move in round 2, the normal procedure would have been for him to notify the TD that he was withdrawing and the TD would have replaced him with the player who finished 2nd in his 1st round group...munbehend. That is the protocol and wouldn't have lifted a single eyebrow.
2.When I first analyzed the 1st round match between appolom and surim, I worked backwards from each game's conclusion and was struck by the weakness of appolem's final 8 or 10 moves.It almost seemed to me that for some reason he'd actually taken a dive.So,when Greg advanced munbehend along with surim to the 2nd round, I considered it perfectly understandable and proper. No doubt my long friendship and respect for munbehend played some role in my reaction even though consciously I thought I was being strictly objective.However, as the forum posts accumulated and concepts such as determining when a player is or isn't playing up to their potential were raised, I was jolted into reconsidering my position.None of my final conclusions alters my firm belief that Greg,as the TD, was within his rights to decide to advance munbehend. However, on re-analysis of appolem's final moves in each of his games with sorim I realized that,after all, he was playing under extreme time pressure and was clearly unaware that he would receive an additional 15 days on his clock by merely requesting them.In the long history of chess there has never been a player,nor I'm certain will there ever be,whose play under time pressure approaches their actual potential. It's precisely in that situation when the most god-awful blunders occur as they did by appolum in this match. I must add that I now found surim's play in the conclusion of these two games to have been far more impressive in frustrating appolum's frantic race to finish him off than I'd earlier recognized.
3.When Eugene cautioned about opening the can of worms,I assumed he was referring to the matter of when a player isn't playing up to his potential and that led me directly to the play that always occurs at the point of time trouble.
4.I hope that my admission of error on this subject will serve to bring some cloture to the animus that has been driving this thread for too long.

David

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Re: 2012 Net-Chess Tournament Round 2

Post by gmiller » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:44 am

When I say Apollom didn't play to his full potential, I am referring to the fact that he didn't request the extra 15 days, and he didn't request a draw based on insufficient loosing chances. The position on the board in game g1105099637 is a mate in 5, so I think the actual moves he made were winning moves, even if they weren't the best possible moves.

I do not think Apollom lost intentionally, history has show a lot of people don't know those rules when they play here. But these are not mistakes a top level player would make.
Greg Miller

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